GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[cbrown2009]

I believe that the simple 1st hurdle of getting hourly service all day seven day from Mount Pleasant (or Bramalea) to Union is quite enough of a challenge for now without having the added logistics of a Weston -Bramalea shuttle. Besides, some are calling the midday ridership woeful but to my eyes, albeit being my eyes, for what's currently up and running (ie. no trains to Union after 4pm & no trains at all after 6:50pm leaving Union), I'm guess-timating about 20-25% capacity on the 6 car consists, at least Toronto-bound.
A 6 car train carries about 1000 seats (a little less). Even an average ridership of 200 people maxes out the bus service that was in place previously. (Half hourly on 2 routes through west Brampton & Bramalea = 4 buses/hour). So shouldn't that be enough to warrant/justify the trains, even if said trains aren't necessarily crush loaded?

And wouldn't 1 train serve better than say cramming 8 buses through Union Bus Terminal to Brampton/Bramalea between 7-8pm? Or 5 trains than the well over 30 buses (up to 40 on busy nights) to various points in Brampton over the course of an entire evening up to midnight?

 

[TransitBart]

I think that there are more scientists here than politicians so this is an appeal to people's rational senses. Crush load. Not crush load. Midday. Interim. 6 cars. Slower. 2 hours from Kitchener to Union.

If you want optimal usage, build an optimal product.

All the prognostication over "this works" and "this does not" is pure nonsense at this stage because all we are really proving is that if you improve something that is at best in the shitty to adequate range, to something that is "less shitty" or "more adequate" somewhat more people will use or tolerate it.

Put out an excellent product and watch people change their behaviour. All this "pretend" evaluation of the results is pure conjecture.

 

[TOareaFan]

And wouldn't 1 train serve better than say cramming 8 buses through Union Bus Terminal to Brampton/Bramalea between 7-8pm? Or 5 trains than the well over 30 buses (up to 40 on busy nights) to various points in Brampton over the course of an entire evening up to midnight?

so, in your vision, you would cancel all of the buses when hourly train service is introduced? That, to quite a few, will represent a worsening of service. I would think you would have to maintain half hourly bus service (say trains on the hour and buses on the half hour) or you will get a fair few customer complaints.

 

[TransitBart]

so, in your vision, you would cancel all of the buses when hourly train service is introduced? That, to quite a few, will represent a worsening of service. I would think you would have to maintain half hourly bus service (say trains on the hour and buses on the half hour) or you will get a fair few customer complaints.

I would rather chew glass than take a bus.

 

[TOareaFan]

I would rather chew glass than take a bus.

ok....was mistakingly thinking we were talking about a service that served more than just you

 

[TransitBart]

ok....was mistakingly thinking we were talking about a service that served more than just you

I would rather get on with trains.

In my grumpy boss mind sometimes, I think "sit down", "shut up", "work".

MSG to Bruce McCuaig and team: sit down, shut up, work. Results. Now.

MSG to Minister Del Duca. Pls. stop distracting the Metrolinx team with press conferences.

 

[cbrown2009]

so, in your vision, you would cancel all of the buses when hourly train service is introduced? That, to quite a few, will represent a worsening of service. I would think you would have to maintain half hourly bus service (say trains on the hour and buses on the half hour) or you will get a fair few customer complaints.

Not that I would or wouldn't but my comment was based on the fact that the current midday hourly service was implemented at the cost of the half hourly bus services in place previously. For the record, I would skip the buses and stick to the trains in the case of both being offered, but that's just me.

 

[TOareaFan]

I would rather get on with trains.

In my grumpy boss mind sometimes, I think "sit down", "shut up", "work".

MSG to Bruce McCuaig and team: sit down, shut up, work. Results. Now.

MSG to Minister Del Duca. Pls. stop distracting the Metrolinx team with press conferences.

sure...but their primary job "work" is to move people.

And now people at most of the stations on the KW line (to use that as an example) have frequencies homeward of every 15 minutes or so via bus.......if you ditch all of those buses in favour of hourly trains....some people will be less well served. The person arriving at Union 7:15 now takes a bus that gets him back to his car at Bramalea Stn by 7:50.....if trains were hourly on the hour....he would still be at Union 10 minutes later thinking about starting his yourney home.

 

[TransitBart]

sure...but their primary job "work" is to move people.

And now people at most of the stations on the KW line (to use that as an example) have frequencies homeward of every 15 minutes or so via bus.......if you ditch all of those buses in favour of hourly trains....some people will be less well served. The person arriving at Union 7:15 now takes a bus that gets him back to his car at Bramalea Stn by 7:50.....if trains were hourly on the hour....he would still be at Union 10 minutes later thinking about starting his yourney home.

I am not in favour of 'hourly' anything. Rather....

With the sole exception of UPX, I am completely underwhelmed by what Georgetown South has bought.

 

[TOareaFan]

Not that I would or wouldn't but my comment was based on the fact that the current midday hourly service was implemented at the cost of the half hourly bus services in place previously. For the record, I would skip the buses and stick to the trains, but that's just me.

I think you can downgrade frequency a bit by switching to trains....so ditching half hour buses for hourly trains seems ok.....but just after that last train at 6:50 pm at night in current schedule the bus frequencies are more like 15 minutes. I could see that changing to something like trains on the hour and buses on the half hour....but if you look at the example I gave in my last post you can see the benefit of frequencies and the possible harm in going to far

 

[TOareaFan]

I am not in favour of 'hourly' anything.

your comment that 1 train would replace 8 buses suggests you are.

With the sole exception of UPX, I am completely underwhelmed by what Georgetown South has bought.

No one is disagreeing with that statement......but it is not particularly relevant when discussing appropriate service levels and frequencies.

 

[TransitBart]

What (and when) is the next major milestone service improvement that GO is supposed to be delivering? As announced when the whole RER project came together in Spring 2015?

 

[cbrown2009]

What (and when) is the next major milestone service improvement that GO is supposed to be delivering? As announced when the whole RER project came together in Spring 2015?

Barrie weekend hourly trains and Kitchener line evenings & weekend hourly trains. At first I thought those services would come online as of next week but the rumour around UT is saying early next year. I also always felt that while welcome as a start, 24 or 28 trains on the weekends was a little weak, as a 7am-11pm service would require about 36-38 train trips per day.

I think you can downgrade frequency a bit by switching to trains....so ditching half hour buses for hourly trains seems ok.....but just after that last train at 6:50 pm at night in current schedule the bus frequencies are more like 15 minutes. I could see that changing to something like trains on the hour and buses on the half hour....but if you look at the example I gave in my last post you can see the benefit of frequencies and the possible harm in going to far

I would personally add trains at 6:20 & 7:20pm, thereby going half hourly through to 7:50 (or 7:48, if you want) but my point was more that even hourly trains, even at 6 packs in the evenings, would carry much more of a load than the current number of buses. As for schedules, I can only speak personally about the number of times I showed up for a bus at 8:00 or 10:30 or 11 only to find long lines and full buses and wondering, often aloud, how much longer we will have to wait for a train service that would easily accommodate everyone.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For full 2-way on Milton, we'd need 2-track platforms, with pedestrian tunnels. That is a substantial capital spend. And a long time to complete.

Aaand - it sets aside the issue of mitigating freight train interference. CP would have to be willing to single track freight from Hornby to Lambton to even achieve hourly service.

We need to watch the Missing link play out before we do any serious dreaming about the Milton line.

- Paul

All true Paul. But Milton is the second business line, I think it would be good to get it going, rather then continuing to have people in the south cram lakeshore and people in the north cram Brampton and Bramlea.

I believe that the simple 1st hurdle of getting hourly service all day seven day from Mount Pleasant (or Bramalea) to Union is quite enough of a challenge for now without having the added logistics of a Weston -Bramalea shuttle. Besides, some are calling the midday ridership woeful but to my eyes, albeit being my eyes, for what's currently up and running (ie. no trains to Union after 4pm & no trains at all after 6:50pm leaving Union), I'm guess-timating about 20-25% capacity on the 6 car consists, at least Toronto-bound.
A 6 car train carries about 1000 seats (a little less). Even an average ridership of 200 people maxes out the bus service that was in place previously. (Half hourly on 2 routes through west Brampton & Bramalea = 4 buses/hour). So shouldn't that be enough to warrant/justify the trains, even if said trains aren't necessarily crush loaded?

And wouldn't 1 train serve better than say cramming 8 buses through Union Bus Terminal to Brampton/Bramalea between 7-8pm? Or 5 trains than the well over 30 buses (up to 40 on busy nights) to various points in Brampton over the course of an entire evening up to midnight?

I so agree. I think keep the buses for every other hour until the tracks are upgraded though, which should be demanded soon. I don't support cramming UPX at all.

I think that there are more scientists here than politicians so this I is an appeal to people's rational senses. Crush load. Not crush load. Midday. Interim. 6 cars. Slower. 2 hours from Kitchener to Union.

If you want optimal usage, build an optimal product.

All the prognostication over "this works" and "this does not" is pure nonsense at this stage because all we are really proving is that if you improve something that is at best in the shitty to adequate range, to something that is "less shitty" or "more adequate" somewhat more people will use or tolerate it.

Put out an excellent product and watch people change their behaviour. All this "pretend" evaluation of the results is pure conjecture.

Agreed. This is Metrolinx at its worst. We shouldn't even be having this discussion. Hopefully they publicize the rest of the all day service on the other lines better.

What (and when) is the next major milestone service improvement that GO is supposed to be delivering? As announced when the whole RER project came together in Spring 2015?

Weekend service on the Barrie line (to barrie), day service to Mt Joy and the rest of the Brampton service next year, hopefully.

Barrie weekend hourly trains and Kitchener line evenings & weekend hourly trains. At first I thought those services would come online as of next week but the rumour around UT is saying early next year. I also always felt that while welcome as a start, 24 or 28 trains on the weekends was a little weak, as a 7am-11pm service would require about 36-38 train trips per day.



I would personally add trains at 6:20 & 7:20pm, thereby going half hourly through to 7:50 (or 7:48, if you want) but my point was more that even hourly trains, even at 6 packs in the evenings, would carry much more of a load than the current number of buses. As for schedules, I can only speak personally about the number of times I showed up for a bus at 8:00 or 10:30 or 11 only to find long lines and full buses and wondering, often aloud, how much longer we will have to wait for a train service that would easily accommodate everyone.

you beat me to it. Don't forget the Stouffville line getting regular weekday service.

 

[TOareaFan]

Barrie weekend hourly trains and Kitchener line evenings & weekend hourly trains. At first I thought those services would come online as of next week but the rumour around UT is saying early next year. I also always felt that while welcome as a start, 24 or 28 trains on the weekends was a little weak, as a 7am-11pm service would require about 36-38 train trips per day.



I would personally add trains at 6:20 & 7:20pm, thereby going half hourly through to 7:50 (or 7:48, if you want) but my point was more that even hourly trains, even at 6 packs in the evenings, would carry much more of a load than the current number of buses. As for schedules, I can only speak personally about the number of times I showed up for a bus at 8:00 or 10:30 or 11 only to find long lines and full buses and wondering, often aloud, how much longer we will have to wait for a train service that would easily accommodate everyone.

I have had the same experience....but I think there are nuances to cancelling very frequent buses and telling people that typically would be on a bus at X time for a 45 minute journey to way those 45 minutes for a train to leave...that person will (correctly) see that train service as personally inferior.