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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I would suggest that the single most important factor for boosting ridership in that, or any other corridor is consistent, all-day service.

Its as simple as, if I take this train one way, can I get home, when I when I need to, later the same day.

When I hear off-peak ridership is unexpected low in this corridor, I shake my head.

If you took a train from Brampton, for work, at 10am, and worked an 8 hour shift, so needed a return train sometime close to 7:30-8pm.............there isn't one..

If you took a train in at 5pm for an evening on the town..........no return train at 11pm.

If you grabbed a mid-day train to Brampton to see family, no return trips after about 4pm.

No wonder there are so few riders.

File it under 'duh'.

On top of that, the mid-day service they do run isn't entirely hourly, the schedule is bumpy.

So unpredictable service, for a relatively short period nets poor ridership.............who would've thunk it?

***

Hourly 6am-1am, 7 days a week.....(more in rush hours) and the service will build a substantial following.
 
I would suggest that the single most important factor for boosting ridership in that, or any other corridor is consistent, all-day service.

Its as simple as, if I take this train one way, can I get home, when I when I need to, later the same day.

When I hear off-peak ridership is unexpected low in this corridor, I shake my head.

If you took a train from Brampton, for work, at 10am, and worked an 8 hour shift, so needed a return train sometime close to 7:30-8pm.............there isn't one..

If you took a train in at 5pm for an evening on the town..........no return train at 11pm.

If you grabbed a mid-day train to Brampton to see family, no return trips after about 4pm.

No wonder there are so few riders.

File it under 'duh'.

On top of that, the mid-day service they do run isn't entirely hourly, the schedule is bumpy.

So unpredictable service, for a relatively short period nets poor ridership.............who would've thunk it?

***

Hourly 6am-1am, 7 days a week.....(more in rush hours) and the service will build a substantial following.

It goes beyond that, its a deterrent for people when there are only peak commuter service EVEN if the times normally work for them, as in the commuter service fits within their requirement to get to work and get home.

Why? People just don't like being "stuck" if there is an emergency or issue that they need to return home at an odd time, or get to an appointment for them or their kids etc.

Even though GO buses run during the day, its a different service and people don't want to have to figure out a secondary mode of transport.

For them to leave the car at home, there has to be all day service.

Its the peace of mind that you can rely on the service regardless of circumstance.
 
The same way they do it all over Europe...you buy a ticket from, say, Bramalea to Union...it says, change trains at Weston......as long as the connection is smooth (ie. effort is made to co-ordinate the schedules to minimize the wait/connection time) people should see greater value in 30 minute service with a short transfer over hourly service....people should measure how long after, for example, that Saturday TFC match ended until they get home.

Fully agree that if the transfer could be done smoothly and quickly, it should be possible. My only worry is that Weston wasn't designed for this and tail tracks might be helpful. A dead end tail track could go on the east side of the station, or, if the Missing Link/bypass with CP Rail's participation is ever done, it would free up the CP Rail MacTier sub between the CN York Sub and the West Toronto/CP North Toronto Sub. Another option would be to have the trains at Weston "double berth" and face each other, controlled by signals mid-way along the platform and separated. I think that's how the Sheppard Subway and Sheppard East LRT were to have met. Others with more rail knowledge are welcome to correct or point out any flaws in the above.

(I had to get the map below from here instead of Google because the Google Map for this area hasn't been updated).
weston.png
 
Fully agree that if the transfer could be done smoothly and quickly, it should be possible. My only worry is that Weston wasn't designed for this and tail tracks might be helpful. A dead end tail track could go on the east side of the station, or, if the Missing Link/bypass with CP Rail's participation is ever done, it would free up the CP Rail MacTier sub between the CN York Sub and the West Toronto/CP North Toronto Sub. Another option would be to have the trains at Weston "double berth" and face each other, controlled by signals mid-way along the platform and separated. I think that's how the Sheppard Subway and Sheppard East LRT were to have met. Others with more rail knowledge are welcome to correct or point out any flaws in the above.

(I had to get the map below from here instead of Google because the Google Map for this area hasn't been updated).
weston.png
Have you every visit this station let alone others in persons??

If you did as well look at plans for it, you will see this corridor will only hold 6 tracks period. 4 tracks are for Metrolinx, with track 1 missing that on the east side of the centre platform. CP has 2 track with track 2 missing at this time.

The plan is to have track 1 in place by 2024 if needed by then. The plan also calls for a switch at the north end of track 1 at the station that will connect to CP track 2 to allow GO service to Bolton.

At this time, I don't expect to see any Bolton service for at least 2 decades or if at all unless some major changes happen in that time frame that will require rail service.

As I have said in the past, looking a maps doesn't tell the real story as to what is around X area and what will be needed to fix x issues/problems or land use. One needs to walk, bike, ride transit and driver to understand the area, but most of all photograph it. When you see things from ground zero, it tells a different story, especially when photographing, since you are see what there now and can vision what it could be if x buildings were built or what every.

If you have follow this station in planning, you will find EMS & the fire department oppose a tunnel to the east side of the corridor that force riders to have walk further to get to the station.

There will always be a need for maps to show areas that can't be seen by any means. A lot of times, I will drive around to see if I can find a place or use the overpass to get shots of the corridor ox X site.

At this time, having hourly service is the best you are going to get, as there is next to no riders using stations in Toronto, Mississauga or Brampton today to justify more. UPX steal most of the Mount Pleasant ridership in the first place.
 
The plan is to have track 1 in place by 2024 if needed by then. The plan also calls for a switch at the north end of track 1 at the station that will connect to CP track 2 to allow GO service to Bolton.

At this time, I don't expect to see any Bolton service for at least 2 decades or if at all unless some major changes happen in that time frame that will require rail service.
Then by your own logic, you make the case for utilizing *what we already have*! The track arrangement can be made more sophisticated later as need be presents itself.

We're talking about NOW! Pardon my being so emphatic on that, but look at the "likes" to some of the comments! This isn't rocket science, it's *making do with what we have*. Ideally, a new station already planned at Woodbine Racetrack would be a far better shuttle point, but we don't know when that will happen. We don't know when a lot will happen, but most of us know there's an excellent corridor pretty much going to waste within a stone's throw of Bramalea.

And to do a simple shuttle, it seems most everything is in place, save some short stretches of track.

Is this awkward somewhat? Absolutely, Toronto's never seen rail shuttles, at least not in this century. But they're part of the backbone in London, New York etc, etc. How inconvenient will this be for GO passengers? How about as inconvenient as for subway riders having to make a cross-platform change?

There's a lot of rough edges on this, doubtless, but that won't stop anyone seriously looking to transit downtown. UPX getting saturated? Get them running all three car trains. Are the mechanical issues fixed or not? If not, then maybe consider the airport leg being the shuttle, and run more serious bi-levels not only to Union, but out the other side. Do two legs for the price of one platform pathing.

If you have follow this station in planning, you will find EMS & the fire department oppose a tunnel to the east side of the corridor that force riders to have walk further to get to the station.
Hey, there's a hell of a lot worse pinch points in the system that need addressing before the Weston example.
again, I cannot speak for all Bramptonians (only the ones in my family) but if shuttling to Weston gave greater frequency......I would rather have 30 minute service with a stop/connection than hourly service straight through. Hourly service to events in Toronto on evenings and weekends is not going to end my current practice of driving to either Long Branch or Weston to get to the event....and I imagine it won't change the pattern for too many of those that currently choose to drive all the way.
It's a very valid point, I was starting to soften on the 15 min frequency, but here's the rub: If that was the justification for UPX to get up and running, how is it any different elsewhere? It's standard "metro" frequency.

I offer one caveat to make this all work more smoothly, and due to the very limited number of Sharyo units available: Twenty minute frequency Union to Airport (all three car) and Sharyo shuttle (two car) to Bramalea. One out of every three shuttle runs to Bramalea will be rendered moot by the use of full bi-level trains for the hourly service already extant, but also run later hours too.

I may realize later that this still comes up short, but let's start looking at what can be done, not what can't. Dammit, Joe Plebe has already paid a fortune for this, let's figure out a way to maximize the utility. And get people using this! I know damn well Brampton and Mississauga Transit would start tying bus routes into this too. It will get used.

I've even got a name for it: EvenSmarterTrack.

Edit to Add:
If you took a train from Brampton, for work, at 10am, and worked an 8 hour shift, so needed a return train sometime close to 7:30-8pm.............there isn't one..

Absolutely, applies to a lot of the system, but as that relates to Bramalea south, that can and should be addressed. (Apologies to some of the other posters, but it has to be Bramalea as the northern terminus for now for frequent service due to the CN priority on tracks from there to Georgetown). If UPX can run the hours it does, then "the shuttle" should run at least until 10:00 PM. That's a detail that could be fine-tuned, but late running is a huge plus to shift-workers and just general usage for buses tying into it at Bramalea as well.
 
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Have you every visit this station let alone others in persons??

Actually, I have been in person (not persons) to this station and others but thanks for the snark. That's why I posted in advance the qualification in the post.

I also raised the point of the future of the MacTier Sub if the Missing Link is built with CP using it. Would two tracks for peak only single directional service to Bolton still be required? I thought TOareaFan had an interesting idea so I was just trying to build off of it. Maybe I shouldn't even bother next time.
 
Have you every visit this station let alone others in persons??

If you did as well look at plans for it, you will see this corridor will only hold 6 tracks period. 4 tracks are for Metrolinx, with track 1 missing that on the east side of the centre platform. CP has 2 track with track 2 missing at this time.

The plan is to have track 1 in place by 2024 if needed by then. The plan also calls for a switch at the north end of track 1 at the station that will connect to CP track 2 to allow GO service to Bolton.

At this time, I don't expect to see any Bolton service for at least 2 decades or if at all unless some major changes happen in that time frame that will require rail service.

As I have said in the past, looking a maps doesn't tell the real story as to what is around X area and what will be needed to fix x issues/problems or land use. One needs to walk, bike, ride transit and driver to understand the area, but most of all photograph it. When you see things from ground zero, it tells a different story, especially when photographing, since you are see what there now and can vision what it could be if x buildings were built or what every.

If you have follow this station in planning, you will find EMS & the fire department oppose a tunnel to the east side of the corridor that force riders to have walk further to get to the station.

There will always be a need for maps to show areas that can't be seen by any means. A lot of times, I will drive around to see if I can find a place or use the overpass to get shots of the corridor ox X site.

At this time, having hourly service is the best you are going to get, as there is next to no riders using stations in Toronto, Mississauga or Brampton today to justify more. UPX steal most of the Mount Pleasant ridership in the first place.
I agree

Then by your own logic, you make the case for utilizing *what we already have*! The track arrangement can be made more sophisticated later as need be presents itself.

We're talking about NOW! Pardon my being so emphatic on that, but look at the "likes" to some of the comments! This isn't rocket science, it's *making do with what we have*. Ideally, a new station already planned at Woodbine Racetrack would be a far better shuttle point, but we don't know when that will happen. We don't know when a lot will happen, but most of us know there's an excellent corridor pretty much going to waste within a stone's throw of Bramalea.

And to do a simple shuttle, it seems most everything is in place, save some short stretches of track.

Is this awkward somewhat? Absolutely, Toronto's never seen rail shuttles, at least not in this century. But they're part of the backbone in London, New York etc, etc. How inconvenient will this be for GO passengers? How about as inconvenient as for subway riders having to make a cross-platform change?

There's a lot of rough edges on this, doubtless, but that won't stop anyone seriously looking to transit downtown. UPX getting saturated? Get them running all three car trains. Are the mechanical issues fixed or not? If not, then maybe consider the airport leg being the shuttle, and run more serious bi-levels not only to Union, but out the other side. Do two legs for the price of one platform pathing.


Hey, there's a hell of a lot worse pinch points in the system that need addressing before the Weston example.

It's a very valid point, I was starting to soften on the 15 min frequency, but here's the rub: If that was the justification for UPX to get up and running, how is it any different elsewhere? It's standard "metro" frequency.

I offer one caveat to make this all work more smoothly, and due to the very limited number of Sharyo units available: Twenty minute frequency Union to Airport (all three car) and Sharyo shuttle (two car) to Bramalea. One out of every three shuttle runs to Bramalea will be rendered moot by the use of full bi-level trains for the hourly service already extant, but also run later hours too.

I may realize later that this still comes up short, but let's start looking at what can be done, not what can't. Dammit, Joe Plebe has already paid a fortune for this, let's figure out a way to maximize the utility. And get people using this! I know damn well Brampton and Mississauga Transit would start tying bus routes into this too. It will get used.

I've even got a name for it: EvenSmarterTrack.

Edit to Add:


Absolutely, applies to a lot of the system, but as that relates to Bramalea south, that can and should be addressed. (Apologies to some of the other posters, but it has to be Bramalea as the northern terminus for now for frequent service due to the CN priority on tracks from there to Georgetown). If UPX can run the hours it does, then "the shuttle" should run at least until 10:00 PM. That's a detail that could be fine-tuned, but late running is a huge plus to shift-workers and just general usage for buses tying into it at Bramalea as well.
I also agree. But Drum is correct about the UPX overload. They should just do the hourly service. And then fix the Milton line once and for all.
Actually, I have been in person (not persons) to this station and others but thanks for the snark. That's why I posted in advance the qualification in the post.

I also raised the point of the future of the MacTier Sub if the Missing Link is built with CP using it. Would two tracks for peak only single directional service to Bolton still be required? I thought TOareaFan had an interesting idea so I was just trying to build off of it. Maybe I shouldn't even bother next time.
I think drum could have been softer with that post.
 
I thought TOareaFan had an interesting idea so I was just trying to build off of it.
It's a *very* popular idea. The question isn't if it is, it's *how"? I see a very real need, and I see loco and coaches becoming surplus. It's the makings of a meal.

Maybe I shouldn't even bother next time.
In all fairness to Drum, I don't think he meant to be rude, but he is looking for reasons not for this to happen, whereas many of us are looking for *ways to make it happen*.

I'm still intrigued to know how many two car Sharyo consists would be needed to do a twenty minute shuttle based on a 20 minute UPX schedule, the twenty minutes releasing at least one Sharyo two coach push-pull set to do a simple shuttle Weston to Bramalea.

Any guesses at that folks? It could obviously be done with a few bi-levels and a retiring loco set (the F59s), in which case the UPX could remain as it is at 15 mins, but using three coach trains. If one takes Den's point on overloading the UPX (unlikely) then if it does, Whoopee! It proves the need.

Is the 15 min shuttle schedule overkill? Absolutely....but TO makes an excellent point on the *need* for that frequency. I was Googling for a discussion on the need for the 15 minute schedule by Christian Wolmar, IIRC, I'll post a link later, but anyone remember this?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...troduction-with-early-unease/article24001004/
 
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I agree

I also agree. But Drum is correct about the UPX overload. They should just do the hourly service. And then fix the Milton line once and for all.
I think drum could have been softer with that post.
The Milton line has the fatal factor that the Georgetown Corridor does: Sharing track that isn't Metrolinx'. Milton is not going to see anything substantial until "The Missing Link". Ditto north of Bramalea, but *south* of Bramalea is Metrolinx' track, albeit missing some tiny links to make it totally independent of CN.

Edit to Add: Not the article I was looking for, but relevant:
In North America, “commuter rail” has come to mean something very specific: Large, heavy trains operating almost entirely at peak, providing services to downtown in the morning and away from it at night along corridors that extend into the suburbs. It’s a definition that makes sense for a world where regions are structured with one central business district whose workers live in the suburbs and work nine-to-five jobs on weekdays.

Of course, that’s not the world we live in. Of the 100 largest U.S. metropolitan areas, only two have a majority of their jobs located within three miles of their downtown, and most suburban workers don’t work in city centers. A sizable share of the population doesn’t work a “normal” workweek.

Yet most commuter rail providers continue to operate as if nothing has changed since the 1950s, and for their clientèle, it hasn’t, because the people who ride commuter trains are mostly the people who work “traditional” jobs at “normal” hours downtown. In the process, commuter agencies have ignored the progress made elsewhere to convert these traditional services into frequent, two-direction, all-day services similar to rapid transit. And they’ve lost out: While ridership on American heavy and light rail systems — which feature the service characteristics of rapid transit — has expanded by more than 90% overall since 1995, ridership on commuter rail systems has increased by only 35%.

In Ontario, GO Transit is piloting a new approach that could serve as a model for commuter rail agencies that need to be brought into modernity. GO has seven commuter lines that feed into Toronto’s Union Station along 280 miles of service, carrying about 200,000 daily train riders, and until recently it’s been primarily focused on the core, peak-hour, peak-direction commute shared with most agencies.

But thanks to the electoral pledge and eventual budget plans of former Premier Dalton McGuinty and current Premier Kathleen Wynne, combined with progressive thinking from agency leadership, the agency has shifted its priorities.

In the 2007 strategic plan, GO chairman Peter Smith emphasized that the agency needed to “grow into an even more comprehensive system that links multiple activity centres and communities,” spreading its mission beyond just serving peak travelers into central Toronto. The plan specified the goal of expanding service to every 15 minutes during the peak hours and every 30 minutes off-peak. In the post recent five-year strategy of GO’s overseeing agency (Metrolinx), the agency lays out its plan to transition to an “all-day regional transit service.” You can be assured that the largest U.S. commuter agencies have no such plans on their radar.

One year ago, GO took the most significant step yet in that direction, bringing all-day, half-hourly, two-directional service to the Lakeshore commuter lines, up from one-hour headways. The change has already increased ridership by 30% on those lines.

The benefits of thinking more broadly about potential riders are very significant. Commuter rail improvements create an opportunity to provide a far faster transit option that traverses the region at commuter rail speeds (which average above 30 mph) at arrival frequencies similar to rapid transit lines (which average 15 to 20 mph). These improvements open suburban markets to transit, giving people who live near stations the kind of service that people who live in denser, urban areas expect as a standard element of city life. They reduce the need for a car for commutes that require traversing large sections of a large region.

Perhaps most importantly, upgrading commuter rail can be done at a reasonable price, since improvements are made on existing corridors.

This year, the governing Liberals (led by Ms. Wynne) promised to bring a service improvement to the Kitchener line by 2016, and more lines will be converted. They also raised the possibility that more frequent service, potentially on electrified lines, could be coming within 10 years thanks to investments in smaller, lighter vehicles. Regional officials committed to transforming GO into “Regional Express Rail“* by providing electric service every 15 minutes (though there is still a need for additional traditional subway service, costs for the GO conversion are not yet clear, and this idea was brought up as far back as the 1980s). The idea was not just supported by the Liberals; Conservatives at the provincial level also indicated their support for the idea. Now the leader in Toronto’s upcoming mayoral election, John Tory, has said he’d like to convert two GO lines to rapid transit standards.

The sudden interest among Torontonians in the improvement of service along the city’s commuter services is partly a reflection of the fact that the region is growing quickly, adding about half a million people every five years, and partly a reflection of the fact that politicians are willing to support big transit projects because people vote for politicians who support using government funds to pay for them. But it is also a reflection of the fact that GO has spent a decade and a half preparing for this transition, notably by increasing its ownership of track miles on which its trains run from 6% in 1998 to almost 70% today. It is no longer at the mercy of freight rail operators in making decisions about how to operate services.
[...]
* The name is clearly a reference to Paris’ RER, which is a network of rapid transit lines running through the city at very fast speeds and onto formerly commuter rail tracks in the suburbs.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...er-rail-can-be-as-effective-as-rapid-transit/
 
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Now someone in Bramalea has a ~20 minute drive to Long Branch followed by a 14 minute train ride to the Ex.....so ~35 minutes....with the variability that the drive can get longer....they may change that if they, instead, had a 40 minute train ride from Bramalea to Union and a 6 minute train ride to the Ex. On paper still longer but less variability.....but if the train service from Union to Bramalea is hourly they will still continue to drive to Long Branch for fear that a bad connection (ie just missing your train home by 1 minute) will add a full hour to your trip home......the more frequent those trains home are, even if there is a mid-trip connection, the more likely you are to change people's travel patterns.

You sell it with "Now, every 30 minute service to Union via GO Train 7 days a week"
I've found the phrase that defines this: "Show up and go". Using that phrase, and adding "metro" in the search tag shows many results by Googling. Half an hour is good, every 15 mins is much better, and in fact considered the minimum to address exactly what TOArea wrote about:
How frequent is turn up and go transport?
Posted: January 27, 2012 in Transport
Tags: Frequency
Jarrett Walker at Human Transit likes to point out that “frequency is freedom”. This is the idea that, at some point, public transport is so frequent that you can throw away the timetable and just “turn up and go”. Frequency like this is even more important in an integrated network where connections are common, as commuters are waiting for not just one bus/train/tram/ferry but two or more.

But how frequent is this exactly? Is it every 5-7 minutes? Is it every 10 minutes? Is 15 minutes enough? It appears that transport experts agree it is somewhere in this range (between 5 to 15 minutes), any less frequent and people start relying on their timetables, any more frequent and the time saving of a few minutes no longer makes a difference.

For a good discussion on the topic, check out Jarrett Walker’s blog post on the topic: How frequent is freedom? Make sure to read the comments section!!

And for more on frequency in a Sydney context, take a look at my previous post on transport frequency in Sydney.
https://transportsydney.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/how-frequent-is-turn-up-and-go-transport/

Den makes a good point on UPX saturating before a shuttle even adds more, but there are possible ways to address that, even with a very limited stock of Sharyo DMUs, for which it is highly unlikely for a number of reasons that any more will be ordered (they were a mistake from the get-go, but that's another discussion).

What can be considered, with a three coach consist, if an unpowered coach (like surplus VIA LRC coaches) is added in, ( making the consist four coaches long) is will they still accelerate fast enough to maintain the present 15 min schedule? I suspect they will. The high-level platforms are built for up to four coach consists. The way to making this work is by using as much stock as already exists, but using it in a much more productive way, and added costs to doing it are minimal.

This should also be an experiment by Metrolinx, to try and salvage even more from the ill-considered UPX venture. And it should be a demonstration (for once) of frugality, *using what we already have* to make this work, the only outside need would be buying in second hand LRC coaches or the like (a very cheap option in the big scheme of things)(These are high-platform compatible) . Other than extra track, no new locos, no new coaches (LRCs besides), no new stations, no new dreams of grandeur and impossible promises, just something cobbled together of known and proven value, applied in a minimalist but effective way to show what can be done.

Btw: LRC coaches have been seen coupled onto UPX trains out of service at Union to tow them to the Mimico yards.
 
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The Milton line has the fatal factor that the Georgetown Corridor does: Sharing track that isn't Metrolinx'. Milton is not going to see anything substantial until "The Missing Link". Ditto north of Bramalea, but *south* of Bramalea is Metrolinx' track, albeit missing some tiny links to make it totally independent of CN.

Edit to Add: Not the article I was looking for, but relevant:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...er-rail-can-be-as-effective-as-rapid-transit/
Well the plan is 60 min service for Mt Pleasant - Union. Same for Barrie and Mt Joy. Metrolinx will have to cough up that money for the missing link connection. (2 billion dollars) very soon. Milton is busier than every other line except Lakeshore.
 
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Well the plan is 60 min service for Mt Pleasant - Union. Same for Barrie and Mt Joy. Metrolinx will have to cough up that money for the missing link connection. (2 billion dollars) very soon. Milton is busier than every other line except Lakeshore.
I think you might find a lot of answers here, but not to your liking: (enter "Milton" into your page search, and read the comments)
https://stevemunro.ca/2015/09/29/a-frustrating-update-on-transit-expansion-plans/

Let's stay focused on what *can* be done, and done now, and that's increasing utility on the Weston (Western) Corridor up to Bramalea.
 
I think you might find a lot of answers here, but not to your liking: (enter "Milton" into your page search, and read the comments)
https://stevemunro.ca/2015/09/29/a-frustrating-update-on-transit-expansion-plans/

Let's stay focused on what *can* be done, and done now, and that's increasing utility on the Weston (Western) Corridor up to Bramalea.
I honestly disagree here. We'll all laugh when they finally go to all day service on this corridor next april.
 
I honestly disagree here. We'll all laugh when they finally go to all day service on this corridor next april.

For full 2-way on Milton, we'd need 2-track platforms, with pedestrian tunnels. That is a substantial capital spend. And a long time to complete.

Aaand - it sets aside the issue of mitigating freight train interference. CP would have to be willing to single track freight from Hornby to Lambton to even achieve hourly service.

We need to watch the Missing link play out before we do any serious dreaming about the Milton line.

- Paul
 

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