GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[mdrejhon]

I would be more inclined to run service local from Kitchener, and then once it hits Brampton run express (or semi-express) into Union. Have the other GO RER line run local to Mount Pleasant from Union. If someone from Kitchener is bound for a spot east of Brampton other than Union, they can transfer onto the other GO RER line that's making all station stops. For most people though, Union would likely be their destination, so it wouldn't make sense to make all station stops in between.

The same would hold true for other lines that feature exurban trains. Niagara Falls for example would run local to either Aldershot or Oakville, and then express into Union from there. Barrie would run local to Newmarket, and then express in from there.

Yes, it solves a lot of potential issues for GO RER:
-- Simpler if it becomes a requirement for allowing non-FRA trains to be used for GO RER
-- Platform height change to level boarding becomes simpler, if needed for the GO RER trainset chosen.

For example, if we end up using European commuter trains (non-FRA) for GO RER, it may be accomplished by segregating the GO RER track separate of classic GO/VIA/freight train tracks (which is, in theory, possible for 99% of some of the wider GO corridors after the current megaprojects going on -- imagine essentially a de-facto reassignment of a specific track to non-heavy-rail use, such as light rail or subway rail). Platform height changes are far more feasible when we don't have to share the platform; and there are only 7 legacy GO stations that would need to be modified on the "SmartTrack" route if classic GO trains discontinue stopping within this section of the GO network.

However, I'd suggest a change of terminus. Brampton is very logical and I thought so, until it was explained that far more people board at Bramalea than Brampton, so Bramalea would probably be chosen as the final stop before Union on an express GO train.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, it solves a lot of potential issues for GO RER:
-- If we end up using European commuter trains (non-FRA) for GO RER, it may be accomplished by segregating the GO RER track separate of classic GO/VIA/freight train tracks (which is, in theory, possible for some of the wider GO corridors after the current megaprojects going on)
-- It also make platform height changes much simpler, if that becomes necessary (there are only 7 legacy GO stations that would need to be modified on the SmartTrack route, plus an appropriate platform or two at Union).

I think the most appealing aspect of it is that we can run the RER service without the electrification infrastructure necessarily being in place. All that's needed in place is the track infrastructure. The electrification work can be undertaken while the RER service is already running, instead of continuing to run current GO bi-levels while waiting for electrification in order to run EMUs.

However, I'd suggest a change of terminus. Brampton is very logical and I thought so, until it was explained that far more people board at Bramalea than Brampton, so Bramalea would probably be chosen as the final stop before Union on an express GO train.

That would certainly make sense. I suggested Brampton because of the connections to local transit (Hurontario LRT, Zum routes, etc). If it's extended to Bramalea though, those same routes would still be served. I ultimately envision a spur being built along the 407 ROW from just south of Bramalea to Hurontario St, in order to serve northern Mississauga and southern Brampton. If the exurban trains switch to express tracks at Bramalea, it would be easier to slot those local trains from the Hurontario spur into the flow.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I would be more inclined to run service local from Kitchener, and then once it hits Brampton run express (or semi-express) into Union. Have the other GO RER line run local to Mount Pleasant from Union. If someone from Kitchener is bound for a spot east of Brampton other than Union, they can transfer onto the other GO RER line that's making all station stops. For most people though, Union would likely be their destination, so it wouldn't make sense to make all station stops in between.

The same would hold true for other lines that feature exurban trains. Niagara Falls for example would run local to either Aldershot or Oakville, and then express into Union from there. Barrie would run local to Newmarket, and then express in from there.

Yes, it solves a lot of potential issues for GO RER:
-- Simpler if it becomes a requirement for allowing non-FRA trains to be used for GO RER
-- Platform height change to level boarding becomes simpler, if needed for the GO RER trainset chosen.

For example, if we end up using European commuter trains (non-FRA) for GO RER, it may be accomplished by segregating the GO RER track separate of classic GO/VIA/freight train tracks (which is, in theory, possible for 99% of some of the wider GO corridors after the current megaprojects going on -- imagine essentially a de-facto reassignment of a specific track to non-heavy-rail use, such as light rail or subway rail). Platform height changes are far more feasible when we don't have to share the platform; and there are only 7 legacy GO stations that would need to be modified on the "SmartTrack" route if classic GO trains discontinue stopping within this section of the GO network.

However, I'd suggest a change of terminus. Brampton is very logical and I thought so, until it was explained that far more people board at Bramalea than Brampton, so Bramalea would probably be chosen as the final stop before Union on an express GO train.

I think the most appealing aspect of it is that we can run the RER service without the electrification infrastructure necessarily being in place. All that's needed in place is the track infrastructure. The electrification work can be undertaken while the RER service is already running, instead of continuing to run current GO bi-levels while waiting for electrification in order to run EMUs.



That would certainly make sense. I suggested Brampton because of the connections to local transit (Hurontario LRT, Zum routes, etc). If it's extended to Bramalea though, those same routes would still be served. I ultimately envision a spur being built along the 407 ROW from just south of Bramalea to Hurontario St, in order to serve northern Mississauga and southern Brampton. If the exurban trains switch to express tracks at Bramalea, it would be easier to slot those local trains from the Hurontario spur into the flow.

Kitchener -> Bramalea -> Union might not be such a bad idea, but I feel if given the chance Brampton GO would have more riders. Same with Mount Pleasant. Newmarket also makes sense, I have no idea why the rail yard was built in Holland Landing.

 

[gweed123]

Kitchener -> Bramalea -> Union might not be such a bad idea, but I feel if given the chance Brampton GO would have more riders. Same with Mount Pleasant. Newmarket also makes sense, I have no idea why the rail yard was built in Holland Landing.

The idea is that the train would run local to Bramalea, and then run express to Union. This would provide the exurban service that's needed, but shorten the total travel time to Union once the train got within GO RER's service area.

 

[CDL.TO]

If you're running smaller trains to Kitchener, it might be desirable to skip Bramalea so that those passengers don't overload your train. If half the passengers on your outbound train get off at the first stop, you're probably not efficiently distributing demand between the local and express trains.

 

[gweed123]

If you're running smaller trains to Kitchener, it might be desirable to skip Bramalea so that those passengers don't overload your train. If half the passengers on your outbound train get off at the first stop, you're probably not efficiently distributing demand between the local and express trains.

True. It's a fine balance between overloading with local travellers vs not providing enough intermediate connection points for people not travelling to the terminus. Outbound is more of an issue than inbound though, because at least with inbound the passengers from further out (who that train is actually intended for) get first crack at seats.

 

[mdrejhon]

The idea is that the train would run local to Bramalea, and then run express to Union. This would provide the exurban service that's needed, but shorten the total travel time to Union once the train got within GO RER's service area.

Something needs to be done with all the level crossings to Kitchener. The otherwise straight-arrow railroad between Kitchener and Guelph is a single track in many sections with level street crossings. This makes half an hour to get that twenty kilometers between Kitchener and Guelph. Imagine a double-track grade-separated corridor. Now you've got rapid transit between Kitchener and Guelph taking only 15-minutes. And saving 15 minutes off the whole long Kitchener ride -- without doing anything else beyond Guelph yet!

This type of optimization, combined with express Kitchener trains, should in theory be eventually able to allow a 1h15min (or less) Kitchener commute on the existing diesel 12-car!

 

[gweed123]

Something needs to be done with all the level crossings to Kitchener. The otherwise straight-arrow railroad between Kitchener and Guelph is a single track in many sections with level street crossings. This makes half an hour to get that twenty kilometers between Kitchener and Guelph. Imagine a double-track grade-separated corridor. Now you've got rapid transit between Kitchener and Guelph taking only 15-minutes. And saving 15 minutes off the whole long Kitchener ride -- without doing anything else beyond Guelph yet!

This type of optimization, combined with express Kitchener trains, should in theory be eventually able to allow a 1h15min (or less) Kitchener commute on the existing diesel 12-car!

Now that Metrolinx owns that corridor, I don't doubt that we'll see some kind of upgrade plan in the future.

 

[TOareaFan]

Imagine a double-track grade-separated corridor. Now you've got rapid transit between Kitchener and Guelph taking only 15-minutes. And saving 15 minutes off the whole long Kitchener ride -- without doing anything else beyond Guelph yet!

This type of optimization, combined with express Kitchener trains, should in theory be eventually able to allow a 1h15min (or less) Kitchener commute on the existing diesel 12-car!

15 minutes from KW - Guelph.....X minutes from Guelph to Bramalea.......26 minutes from Bramalea to Union (time current express train takes).

To meet your 75 minutes or less....then the trip from Guelph to Bramalea has to be sub-34 minutes....is that possible?

 

[mdrejhon]

This type of optimization needs to be done along the whole stretch. I think 1h30min is more realistic initially, but we could get it down to 1h15min with twinning and complete grade separation all the way to Kitchener.

Also, 26 minutes express from Bramalea to Union is actually not the full potential the of Georgetown corridor. It is also possible that timetable might be optimized to slotting the express between UPX trains until extra track becomes available.

 

[nfitz]

This type of optimization needs to be done along the whole stretch. I think 1h30min is more realistic initially, but we could get it down to 1h15min with twinning and complete grade separation all the way to Kitchener.

You don't need grade separation to deal with many of the level crossings. Just better signals and gates. The typical maximum train speed for a level crossing is about 175 km/hr - though you can do 200 km/hr if you use an "impenetrable barrier" - http://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0103

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps bringing up and quoting FRA rules. Yes Transport Canada generally follows FRA standards but that doesn't mean they are exactly the same and we don't have to follow what they do or vice versa we can make changes to our regulations well before they do - its unlikely sure, but point is that its still very much possible.

You don't need grade separation to deal with many of the level crossings. Just better signals and gates. The typical maximum train speed for a level crossing is about 175 km/hr - though you can do 200 km/hr if you use an "impenetrable barrier" - http://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0103

In the Canadian regulations there is no references to an "impenetrable barrier" and level crossings are prohibited for speeds above 177 km/h (110 mph) or if the roadway is a "freeway".

 

[mdrejhon]

Do you think GO is able to select a non-FRA train for a fully grade separated route such as RER Bramalea-Stoufville (ala SmartTrack), after all the current megaprojects?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Do you think GO is able to select a non-FRA train for a fully grade separated route such as RER Bramalea-Stoufville (ala SmartTrack), after all the current megaprojects?

Certainly. That's not to say its going to be easy getting to that point, there's a lot of work that needs to be done not just physically but legislatively as well - which may end up taking longer unfortunately. Which is why I think you guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves worrying about all the ins and outs and little details at this point.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure why everyone keeps bringing up and quoting FRA rules.

Because generally they are the same, or an application to adopt them won't meet much resistance. And they are easily publicly accessible, unlike Transport Canada.

In the Canadian regulations there is no references to an "impenetrable barrier" and level crossings are prohibited for speeds above 177 km/h (110 mph)

I'm scratching my head where in Canada there is currently ANY operating speed over 177 km/hr. Presumably the current Transport Canada rules predate the current FRA rules, and have not been modified, because no one has applied to run faster than 177 km/hr.

The point was that speeding up services between Guelph and Kitchener doesn't require grade separation. I think this holds true.

... or if the roadway is a "freeway".

Odd ... I'd thought I'd seen the odd level crossing on a very rural expressway before in the Prairies somewhere.

The Hanlon Parkway (Highway 6) has a level crossing between Woodlawn and Speedvale - though I suppose that piece of the Hanlon isn't a "freeway".

When was Autoroute 31 grade separated from the old CP Trois-Rivieres Subdivision? I've got a vague feeling that used to be a level crossing ... though perhaps A31 was a tollway not a freeway back then ...