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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

^ The new schedule intuitively seems better to allow people to make a "day" visit at the Falls, by choosing to either leave Toronto early and come back after a few hours (before dinner, if the kids get bored and tired... ), or stay for dinner, or go down in the afternoon for dinner - while still serving the evening casino business.

Good on GO for looking for some "get out of town" opportunities for ridership. One wonders if one or more midweek trips could be coaxed out of CN, at least until end of summer.

- Paul
 
Has there been any updates about the new stations proposed on the Kitchener line? I am specifically referring to the Old Weston and St Clair station. It seems like the smart track website no longer exists, and while it is still listed on the Metrolinx website, it doesn’t seem included in any plans currently underway, with the last update being from a year or two ago. Selfishly, I want this station built, but realistically, I feel like it is no longer part of the proposed plans, unless anyone can clarify.
 
Great to see Niagara regaining service.

Might anyone have a guess as to when we could see the 16 Hamilton/Union express bus coming back? When GO initially reduced their service due to the pandemic it was cut to a single bus a day going from Hamilton to Union, at 12:30 AM. Who exactly is going to take that bus? In my opinion, the only reason to run that bus was to allow them to claim no service had been 100% cut. (But that's beside the point.)

I figure GO would've gradually increased service by now, but they haven't. I also heard through the grapevine (and no idea if this has any credence, so take it with a grain of salt) that Metrolinx has looked for an excuse to cancel or heavily reduce the 16 for a few years now. Apparently to push people to use the trains at Hamilton Centre and West Harbour and justify the cost of those stations. Any insight on this?

On one hand I'm skeptical because the 16 is usually very well traveled, and it's just so convenient. Back in March (last time I took it) it made the trip in just about 45-50 minutes. On the other hand, it's Metrolinx. They're unpredictable at best and prone to misjudgments at worst.
 
The 16 is great although I'd rather more regular rail to Hamilton, if I had to have one or the other.

Any word on what's happening at West Harbour? Any chance they're building a through-track, to end this madness?
 
Has there been any updates about the new stations proposed on the Kitchener line? I am specifically referring to the Old Weston and St Clair station. It seems like the smart track website no longer exists, and while it is still listed on the Metrolinx website, it doesn’t seem included in any plans currently underway, with the last update being from a year or two ago. Selfishly, I want this station built, but realistically, I feel like it is no longer part of the proposed plans, unless anyone can clarify.
That station can't be build until the St Clair overpass is rebuilt and possible the Keele St extension. No idea where the time frame is for the 2 overpass, considering where we are with COVID 19

As for Niagara Falls, wasn't there a Friday night train that layover in NF to be the first train for Sat?? If GO reinstate that Train, you could have 5 eastbound trains in place of 4 that would offer better options for riders. Its also nice to see 4 trains in place of 3 as it give riders more options when to travel. Not surprise to see 6 cars on the trains, but bikes maybe become an issue based on trains I have used to NF in the past since I expect more bikers using the train than normal riders. Will they use F59PH or MP40PH-3C on these trains?? If using MP40PH-3C, you would expect more saving in travel time since they will be pulling/pushing 6 cars in place of 10/12 cars.
 
Great to see Niagara regaining service.

Might anyone have a guess as to when we could see the 16 Hamilton/Union express bus coming back? When GO initially reduced their service due to the pandemic it was cut to a single bus a day going from Hamilton to Union, at 12:30 AM. Who exactly is going to take that bus? In my opinion, the only reason to run that bus was to allow them to claim no service had been 100% cut. (But that's beside the point.)

I figure GO would've gradually increased service by now, but they haven't. I also heard through the grapevine (and no idea if this has any credence, so take it with a grain of salt) that Metrolinx has looked for an excuse to cancel or heavily reduce the 16 for a few years now. Apparently to push people to use the trains at Hamilton Centre and West Harbour and justify the cost of those stations. Any insight on this?

On one hand I'm skeptical because the 16 is usually very well traveled, and it's just so convenient. Back in March (last time I took it) it made the trip in just about 45-50 minutes. On the other hand, it's Metrolinx. They're unpredictable at best and prone to misjudgments at worst.

I like the 16 as well - I've used it more than any other GO bus service.

A decade ago, GO announced the cancellation of peak-direction route 16 trips where there was both direct train and bus service between Hamilton Centre and Union, and the only time that the train was time-competitive with the bus. Somehow, the riders of those buses put up enough of a stink to save it (it had two advantages - additional stops on Main and King, and being more more comfortable (quieter, better leg room) than a quad on a packed GO train.
 
As for Niagara Falls, wasn't there a Friday night train that layover in NF to be the first train for Sat?? If GO reinstate that Train, you could have 5 eastbound trains in place of 4 that would offer better options for riders. Its also nice to see 4 trains in place of 3 as it give riders more options when to travel. Not surprise to see 6 cars on the trains, but bikes maybe become an issue based on trains I have used to NF in the past since I expect more bikers using the train than normal riders. Will they use F59PH or MP40PH-3C on these trains?? If using MP40PH-3C, you would expect more saving in travel time since they will be pulling/pushing 6 cars in place of 10/12 cars.

You'd think that was how it worked, but it wasn't. The Friday evening train left Toronto at 18:20, arrived in Niagara Falls at 20:24, and then headed back toward Toronto at 20:40, arriving at Union at 22:44. So they must have deadheaded a train 100+km from Willowbrook to run that 08:30 morning train from Niagara. I guess Niagara Falls lacked the capability to actually store a train overnight.

A decade ago, GO announced the cancellation of peak-direction route 16 trips where there was both direct train and bus service between Hamilton Centre and Union, and the only time that the train was time-competitive with the bus. Somehow, the riders of those buses put up enough of a stink to save it (it had two advantages - additional stops on Main and King, and being more more comfortable (quieter, better leg room) than a quad on a packed GO train.

Interesting. I always wondered why GO bothered operating those peak-direction Route 16 trips where even if you arrive at Hamilton Centre exactly at the bus' departure time it's still faster to ignore it and wait for the train:
Capture.JPG
 
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You'd think that was how it worked, but it wasn't. The Friday evening train left Toronto at 18:20, arrived in Niagara Falls at 20:24, and then headed back toward Toronto at 20:40, arriving at Union at 22:44. So they must have deadheaded a train 100+km from Willowbrook to run that 08:30 morning train from Niagara. I guess Niagara Falls lacked the capability to actually store a train overnight.



Interesting. I always wondered why GO bothered operating those peak-direction Route 16 trips where even if you arrive at Hamilton Centre exactly at the bus' departure time it's still faster to ignore it and wait for the train:
View attachment 260715

Silly question, but why wouldn't go run a train to Niagara out of Lewis Yard (just past the new GO Stn under construction (Confederation).

That's a lot closer to Niagara, and they do use it store the Hamilton morning trains or at least some of them on weekdays.

Looks like GO has significant room for more tracks there as well.
 
You'd think that was how it worked, but it wasn't. The Friday evening train left Toronto at 18:20, arrived in Niagara Falls at 20:24, and then headed back toward Toronto at 20:40, arriving at Union at 22:44. So they must have deadheaded a train 100+km from Willowbrook to run that 08:30 morning train from Niagara. I guess Niagara Falls lacked the capability to actually store a train overnight.



Interesting. I always wondered why GO bothered operating those peak-direction Route 16 trips where even if you arrive at Hamilton Centre exactly at the bus' departure time it's still faster to ignore it and wait for the train:
View attachment 260715
Never paid attention to NF trains on Friday other than a train ran there and assume it layover there since there is a setup to do it. The Setup was for VIA before they cancel the train.

The Lewis yard can handle 10+ trains if I remember correctly and I thought I have that info on the photos I shot of the yard, but not there. There was 4 track then and only took up a small section, but more complex to be built as more trains are store there.

Even deadheading a train to NF is a waste of money from Lewis Yard.
 
Silly question, but why wouldn't go run a train to Niagara out of Lewis Yard (just past the new GO Stn under construction (Confederation).

That's a lot closer to Niagara, and they do use it store the Hamilton morning trains or at least some of them on weekdays.

Looks like GO has significant room for more tracks there as well.

I think it's because Lewis Yard didn't exist in 2009 when the previous Niagara schedule was written.

The yard was designed to be expanded to 10 or so trains, but only 4 train storage spots were actually built in the initial phase:
Capture.JPG

All of those spots are now occupied by the trainsets running West Harbour commuter trips (including the one Niagara commuter trip).
As a side note, the first phase also didn't build the connecting tracks toward Niagara since weekday Niagara service wasn't scheduled to begin until years after opening. Which means that the current weekday service needs to head westbound out of the yard, then reverse eastbound to Niagara, enter service westbound, drive past West Harbour, reverse eastbound into the station before continuing westbound to Bayview Junction where the tracks curve eastbound to Toronto. Like Drum said, it's a tremendous waste of resources, given that the train only saves 9 minutes compared to the simultaneous Route 12 bus, far less than would be saved by simply running an express trip on route 12:

note that Niagara Falls bus terminal is right across the street from the station
Ah.JPG


As I described in my last post, you could use one of those commuter trainsets for weekend service, but if you want to also store a Niagara trainset with bike coaches you'd need to either add tracks or shorten both the Niagara train and one of the commuter trains to 6 cars each to fit in a single 12-car train slot like they sometimes do on the Barrie Line.

I also heard through the grapevine (and no idea if this has any credence, so take it with a grain of salt) that Metrolinx has looked for an excuse to cancel or heavily reduce the 16 for a few years now. Apparently to push people to use the trains at Hamilton Centre and West Harbour and justify the cost of those stations. Any insight on this?

On one hand I'm skeptical because the 16 is usually very well traveled, and it's just so convenient. Back in March (last time I took it) it made the trip in just about 45-50 minutes. On the other hand, it's Metrolinx. They're unpredictable at best and prone to misjudgments at worst.

Yes, it's safe to assume that GO plans to phase out the 16 in the long term, in fact Phil Verster pretty much says so at 1:15:17 in this video. But that phaseout needs to come in tandem with all-day express train service to Hamilton (probably West Harbour). Express being a key word here - extending the local service one stop further wouldn't count because it would still be so much slower than route 16.

I happened to have a spreadsheet version of the October 2018 Route 16 schedule so I plotted the Hamilton Centre to Toronto Union travel times over the course of the day, along with the four direct Lakeshore West express trains:
Capture.JPG

By my estimate (and others'), trains running the weekend express stopping pattern take about 1:00 from West Harbour to Union, which is faster than Route 16's schedule for most of the day. Of course, Hamilton Centre station is much more convenient than West Harbour, but even accounting for increased access time to the station, the difference is relatively minor. While it's also true that the 16 commonly arrives ahead of schedule, that possible time savings is highly sporadic based on traffic conditions. While the bus often takes as little as 0:50 in the midday, it can also easily take 1:20.

My personal guess is that the 16 will be canceled when hourly express service is introduced between Hamilton West Harbour and Toronto Union. That's an unfortunate drop in frequency compared to the current 20 to 30-minute bus service, but the train frequency will subsequently increase over time. The 16 might be retained for late-evening trips when there's less traffic and train service would therefore be less beneficial (after 21:00 based on the above chart).
 
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As a side note, the first phase also didn't build the connecting tracks toward Niagara since weekday Niagara service wasn't scheduled to begin until years after opening. Which means that the current weekday service needs to head westbound out of the yard, then reverse eastbound to Niagara, enter service westbound, drive past West Harbour, reverse eastbound into the station before continuing westbound to Bayview Junction where the tracks curve eastbound to Toronto. Like Drum said, it's a tremendous waste of resources, given that the train only saves 9 minutes compared to the simultaneous Route 12 bus, far less than would be saved by simply running an express trip on route 12:
What's funny is if the 5:14 bus is a few minutes early arriving at Burlington GO (which is definitely possible with the amount of padding in travel time between Confederation GO and Burlington GO), you could catch the 6:39 train at Burlington GO, making the bus trip 11 minutes faster than the train trip.
 
Well yeah that makes sense, and indeed the ability to extend the frequent electric GO service to Brampton and Mount Pleasant stations was one of the major benefits of the formerly-planned "missing link" freight bypass. Other benefits would have included the ability to shift the primary intercity route between London and Toronto onto a line entirely owned by passenger rail operators, thereby allowing VIA to vastly improve service fequency and reliability.

But as you probably know, the freight bypass project was cancelled by the Ford government shortly after being elected, presumably because it is a project which would not have produced tangible results within his term and therefore needed to be axed to make the short-term budgets look better. The smaller upgrade projects that were already planned along the Guelph Sub and Weston sub were allowed to continue because they are expected to produce increased service within the next four years and therefore keep up the illusion that the present provincial government is investing in public transport infrastructure.
Not having brampton and mount pleasant stations as part of the 15 minute service is the equivalent of not having all the stations from unionville to mount joy in markham have that service as well. I don’t understand why the biggest priority is only set on the stations that barely enter the respective cities
 
So since ML can’t run all trains to niagara obviously, why not have hourly trains that run express service from union to burlington, and then take the 12B express bus which goes straight to niagara from there (which would also come every hour as well to be a train bus meet service, and it would make sense to allow it to service confederation and St Catherines to complete the corridor)

And also have the 12B go to the park and ride as well, so that vaughan, brampton, missisauga and oakville residents have an easier way to get to niagara via the 40 and 47 go buses
 

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