GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[reaperexpress]

Interesting interview with Phil Verster

The very interesting bits are
9:20 - Verster indicates that changes to the design at East Harbour will mean a flyunder at Scarboro Jct isn't needed. Intuitively that implies that Stouffville trains will end up on the north tracks from Don up to Scarboro Jct. I wonder what options that creates/eliminates for VIA HFR, and how express LSE will integrate with stopping trains on that route.
12:05 - Verster's view of what RER ridership may evolve to post COVID
14:30 - Comments about the Missing Link bypass not being needed "by being more commercially astute"

Kudo's to Reece for upping his journalistic game - this is a more substantive interview than many, even those produced by the mainstream Toronto paper and broadcast media.

Verster is himself, and I stick my tongue in my cheek about some of his statements (such as taking credit for moving away from the procurement model of three years ago.....the one that he and his gang pursued in the first place....sigh) but it's a more informative discussion than many we've seen.

- Paul

Agreed. Thanks to @Reecemartin for bringing us yet more teasers on Metrolinx's game plan!

Verster is a master when it comes to spin, as one needs to be to be CEO of such a large organisation. He describes the decision to cancel the Scarborough Junction Grade Separation as a clever change which will allow more stopping trains at East Harbour. Note: it's not an increase in service, it's just that express trains will now also stop at East Harbour in addition to local trains. This is made possible solely by the addition of a third platform, which could have been done regardless of whether Scarborough Junction is grade separated.

That said, he's clearly very passionate about bringing massively improved rail service within the forseeable future and his clever political strategies will definitely benefit us overall.

Here's my take at illustrating the changes he described: no more grade separation at Scarborough Junction, and an extra platform at East Harbour.

Rather than a single quad-tracked line with services sorted by speed, there are now a pair of double-tracked lines. This creates a problem for express trains, since they can no longer overtake local trains. This is the real reason that Verster's new plan has express trains stopping at East Harbour: they're stuck behind locals anyway so they might as well stop.

On the Lakeshore corridor, there is a pre-existing triple-track segment between Scarborough Jct and Guildwood, so there's plenty of room for peak-direction express services to overtake locals. But if we want express service all day in both directions, we're in trouble. In the absence of passing tracks (e.g counter-peak), the speed of the express services is dictated by the frequency of local service. With local service every 15 minutes, express services can only be about 7 minutes faster than the local. I'm assuming a minimum scheduled separation of 4 minutes, based on the schedules here in the Netherlands. So the express departs 11 minutes behind the local, and by the end of the shared segment it's 4 minutes behind.

Even with moving-block signaling which allows trains as close as 60 seconds, a single shared track would still only allow the express to be 9 minutes faster than the local. But realistically we'd want express services to skip 5 or 6 stops between Union and Pickering, which would make them 10 to 12 minutes faster than the locals. And VIA trains are even faster still.

So if we want all-day express service in both directions, we need to build some additional passing opportunities. The cheapest option would be to simply add a fourth track at Guildwood station. The station's reconstruction a few years ago already built the structure and platforms for a fourth track, all that's missing is the track itself. But the downside of having a one-station-long passing track is that the local trains would need to sit for 2-3 extra minutes to allow the following express train to catch up. This delay can be resolved by extending the passing track to include another station. In the diagram below, I show the track being extended to Eglinton GO, but extending it to Rouge Hill would work as well.

The Stouffville line doesn't have any passing opportunites at all for express trains, so given that local service is proposed to operate every 10 minutes, express service is now physically impossible. In the previous design, express trains could run non-stop from Kennedy to Union.

Another question is what this reorganisation does to the USRC. The current layout of the flyover west of Union allows westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener trains to generally head through the middle of the corridor, while eastbound trains hug the southern edge. Between them there's room for services to terminate and head back the other direction, without crossing the Lakeshore local services.

Cyan: eastbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Magenta: westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Black: turnback platforms (VIA, terminating services etc)
Light Green: other (UPX etc)

<--- toward LSW, Milton, Kitchener, Barrie | | toward Union Station --->

With both directions of Lakeshore service hugging the south side of the corridor, VIA's Windsor, Ottawa and Montreal services would either need to cross westbound service at-grade to reach their current platforms, or they would need to depart from platforms 24-27, which aren't directly connected to the VIA concourse.

 

[Northern Light]

Agreed. Thanks to @Reecemartin for bringing us yet more teasers on Metrolinx's game plan!

Verster is a master when it comes to spin, as one needs to be to be CEO of such a large organisation. He describes the decision to cancel the Scarborough Junction Grade Separation as a clever change which will allow more stopping trains at East Harbour. Note: it's not an increase in service, it's just that express trains will now also stop at East Harbour in addition to local trains. This is made possible solely by the addition of a third platform, which could have been done regardless of whether Scarborough Junction is grade separated.

That said, he's clearly very passionate about bringing massively improved rail service within the forseeable future and his clever political strategies will definitely benefit us overall.

Here's my take at illustrating the changes he described: no more grade separation at Scarborough Junction, and an extra platform at East Harbour.
View attachment 313257
View attachment 313255

Rather than a single quad-tracked line with services sorted by speed, there are now a pair of double-tracked lines. This creates a problem for express trains, since it is no longer possible to overtake local trains. This is the real reason that Verster's new plan has express trains stopping at East Harbour: they're stuck behind locals anyway so they might as well stop.

On the Lakeshore corridor, there is a pre-existing triple-track segment between Scarborough Jct and Guildwood, so there's plenty of room for peak-period express services to overtake locals. But if we want express service all day in both directions, we're in trouble. In the absence of passing tracks (e.g counter-peak), the speed of the express services is dictated by the frequency of local service. With local service every 15 minutes, express services can only be about 7 minutes faster than the local. I'm assuming a minimum scheduled separation of 4 minutes, based on the schedules here in the Netherlands. So the express departs 11 minutes behind the local, and by the end of the shared segment it's 4 minutes behind.
View attachment 313258

But realistically we'd want express services to skip 5 or 6 stops between Union and Pickering, which would make them 10 to 12 minutes faster than the locals. Even with moving-block signaling which allows trains as close as 60 seconds, a single shared track would still only allow the express to be 9 minutes faster than the local.

So if we want all-day express service in both directions, we need to build some additional passing opportunities. The cheapest option would be to simply add a fourth track at Guildwood station. The station's reconstruction a few years ago already built the structure and platforms for a fourth track, all that's missing is the track itself. But the downside of having a one-station-long passing track is that the local trains would need to sit for 2-3 extra minutes to allow the following express train to catch up. This delay can be resolved by extending the passing track to include another station. In the diagram below, I show the track being extended to Eglinton GO, but extending it to Rouge Hill would work as well.
View attachment 313256

Another question is what this reorganisation does to the USRC. The current layout of the flyover west of Union allows westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener trains to generally head through the middle of the corridor, while eastbound trains hug the southern edge. Between them there's room for services to terminate and head back the other direction, without crossing the Lakeshore local services.

Cyan: eastbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Magenta: westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Black: turnback platforms (VIA, terminating services etc)
Light Green: other (UPX etc)

<--- toward LSW, Milton, Kitchener, Barrie | | toward Union Station --->
View attachment 313259

With both directions of Lakeshore service hugging the south side of the corridor, VIA's Windsor, Ottawa and Montreal services would either need to cross westbound service at-grade to reach their current platforms, or they would need to depart from platforms 24-27, which aren't directly connected to the VIA concourse.

Insightful, as always, @reaperexpress

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I'm somewhat more optimistic about the Don Branch than most around here, it seems to be left out that it's really about the only way that makes much sense of VIA HFR to handle it's city access.

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm somewhat more optimistic about the Don Branch than most around here, it seems to be left out that it's really about the only way that makes much sense of VIA HFR to handle it's city access.

Well with the Scarborough Junction Grade separation, VIA would have had very good access via the Stouffville line, running the same service patten as GO's own Stouffville express trains (making one just intermediate stop at Kennedy). Cancelling the Scarborough Junction grade separation definitely limits VIA's ability to run fast service, similarly to how cancelling the Missing Link eliminated their opportunity for HFR West.

GO can still meet their objectives with Verster's cut-back infrastructure plans, it's just VIA who gets screwed.

 

[dullturtle06]

Agreed. Thanks to @Reecemartin for bringing us yet more teasers on Metrolinx's game plan!

Verster is a master when it comes to spin, as one needs to be to be CEO of such a large organisation. He describes the decision to cancel the Scarborough Junction Grade Separation as a clever change which will allow more stopping trains at East Harbour. Note: it's not an increase in service, it's just that express trains will now also stop at East Harbour in addition to local trains. This is made possible solely by the addition of a third platform, which could have been done regardless of whether Scarborough Junction is grade separated.

That said, he's clearly very passionate about bringing massively improved rail service within the forseeable future and his clever political strategies will definitely benefit us overall.

Here's my take at illustrating the changes he described: no more grade separation at Scarborough Junction, and an extra platform at East Harbour.
View attachment 313257
View attachment 313255

Rather than a single quad-tracked line with services sorted by speed, there are now a pair of double-tracked lines. This creates a problem for express trains, since they can no longer overtake local trains. This is the real reason that Verster's new plan has express trains stopping at East Harbour: they're stuck behind locals anyway so they might as well stop.

On the Lakeshore corridor, there is a pre-existing triple-track segment between Scarborough Jct and Guildwood, so there's plenty of room for peak-direction express services to overtake locals. But if we want express service all day in both directions, we're in trouble. In the absence of passing tracks (e.g counter-peak), the speed of the express services is dictated by the frequency of local service. With local service every 15 minutes, express services can only be about 7 minutes faster than the local. I'm assuming a minimum scheduled separation of 4 minutes, based on the schedules here in the Netherlands. So the express departs 11 minutes behind the local, and by the end of the shared segment it's 4 minutes behind.
View attachment 313258

Even with moving-block signaling which allows trains as close as 60 seconds, a single shared track would still only allow the express to be 9 minutes faster than the local. But realistically we'd want express services to skip 5 or 6 stops between Union and Pickering, which would make them 10 to 12 minutes faster than the locals. And VIA trains are even faster still.

So if we want all-day express service in both directions, we need to build some additional passing opportunities. The cheapest option would be to simply add a fourth track at Guildwood station. The station's reconstruction a few years ago already built the structure and platforms for a fourth track, all that's missing is the track itself. But the downside of having a one-station-long passing track is that the local trains would need to sit for 2-3 extra minutes to allow the following express train to catch up. This delay can be resolved by extending the passing track to include another station. In the diagram below, I show the track being extended to Eglinton GO, but extending it to Rouge Hill would work as well.
View attachment 313256

The Stouffville line doesn't have any passing opportunites at all for express trains, so given that local service is proposed to operate every 10 minutes, express service is now physically impossible. In the previous design, express trains could run non-stop from Kennedy to Union.

Another question is what this reorganisation does to the USRC. The current layout of the flyover west of Union allows westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener trains to generally head through the middle of the corridor, while eastbound trains hug the southern edge. Between them there's room for services to terminate and head back the other direction, without crossing the Lakeshore local services.

Cyan: eastbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Magenta: westbound lakeshore/stouffville/barrie/kitchener
Black: turnback platforms (VIA, terminating services etc)
Light Green: other (UPX etc)

<--- toward LSW, Milton, Kitchener, Barrie | | toward Union Station --->
View attachment 313259
View attachment 313325
With both directions of Lakeshore service hugging the south side of the corridor, VIA's Windsor, Ottawa and Montreal services would either need to cross westbound service at-grade to reach their current platforms, or they would need to depart from platforms 24-27, which aren't directly connected to the VIA concourse.

great diagrams, however in the Scarborough junction flyover, they had lakeshore and Stouffville trains stopping at Scarborough, as it an important transfer node for people that want to head south then east to Pickering instead of union. Do you think Metrolinx would have Stouffville bypass Scarborough station?

 

[reaperexpress]

great diagrams, however in the Scarborough junction flyover, they had lakeshore and Stouffville trains stopping at Scarborough, as it an important transfer node for people that want to head south then east to Pickering instead of union. Do you think Metrolinx would have Stouffville bypass Scarborough station?

Yes I think Stouffville trains would skip Scarborough because its catchment area is the same as Kennedy's, and the latter has infinitely better connections. The single Stouffille Line train per day which used to serve Scarborough Station simply did so because otherwise there would have been a really long gap in service between Union and Scarborough due to the way the Lakeshore East express trains were scheduled. Saving four minutes for the small number of people transferring from the Stouville corridor to Lakeshore East would not outweigh the two minutes added for the vast majority of passengers heading through along the Stouffville corridor

 

[crs1026]

^I'm not so sure that both lines need to stop at Danforth, either, given the ability to transfer in several directions at the East Harbour hub. Anyone from Stouffville wanting to transfer to Line 2 would do so at Kennedy. That might give VIA some better speed if they do decide to go through Kennedy with HFR.

I seem to recall that ML is indeed building a short length of triple track around Rouge Hill.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

I won't lie... I dream of the day that trains will run over that viaduct again... hopefully sleek shinkansen type models whisking people to Ottawa some day, but GO diesel fleet headed to park in the Leaside yard for now seems like an attainable goal.

Not in our life time...

 

[reaperexpress]

^I'm not so sure that both lines need to stop at Danforth, either, given the ability to transfer in several directions at the East Harbour hub. Anyone from Stouffville wanting to transfer to Line 2 would do so at Kennedy. That might give VIA some better speed if they do decide to go through Kennedy with HFR.

I seem to recall that ML is indeed building a short length of triple track around Rouge Hill.

- Paul

Additionally/Alternatively, if the GO local service runs every 15 minutes instead of every 10 minutes, there would be enough room for VIA to run between local services without being held up. As previously mentioned, 15 minute local service leaves about 7 minutes of room for "catch up", and VIA actually only needs 4-5 minutes for the short stretch of the corridor they'd share. Here's a pretty extensive service concept which would fit on a pair of tracks (plus a siding at Unionville for turnbacks):

In this scenario, VIA services are 4 minutes faster than local service between Union and Kennedy, and GO express services are 6 minutes faster than local services between Union and Unionville.

 

[Coolstar]

Additionally/Alternatively, if the GO local service runs every 15 minutes instead of every 10 minutes, there would be enough room for VIA to run between local services without being held up. As previously mentioned, 15 minute local service leaves about 7 minutes of room for "catch up", and VIA actually only needs 4-5 minutes for the short stretch of the corridor they'd share. Here's a pretty extensive service concept which would fit on a pair of tracks (plus a siding at Unionville for turnbacks):
View attachment 313336
In this scenario, VIA services are 4 minutes faster than local service between Union and Kennedy, and GO express services are 6 minutes faster than local services between Union and Unionville.

You're just missing Finch-Kennedy GO station. Otherwise great graphic!

 

[reaperexpress]

You're just missing Finch-Kennedy GO station. Otherwise great graphic!

Good point. I also just realized how ridiculous it was to orient it with north facing down.

 

[Haydenpoon]

Additionally/Alternatively, if the GO local service runs every 15 minutes instead of every 10 minutes, there would be enough room for VIA to run between local services without being held up. As previously mentioned, 15 minute local service leaves about 7 minutes of room for "catch up", and VIA actually only needs 4-5 minutes for the short stretch of the corridor they'd share. Here's a pretty extensive service concept which would fit on a pair of tracks (plus a siding at Unionville for turnbacks):
View attachment 313336
In this scenario, VIA services are 4 minutes faster than local service between Union and Kennedy, and GO express services are 6 minutes faster than local services between Union and Unionville.

One of the ways for Express trains to overtake in between Union and Unionville is to quad track using the SRT right-of-way soon to be demolished between Eglinton and Ellesmere. It also means GO can add two more stations in the current Lawrence East and Ellesmere SRT station.

 

[reaperexpress]

One of the ways for Express trains to overtake in between Union and Unionville is to quad track using the SRT right-of-way soon to be demolished between Eglinton and Ellesmere. It also means GO can add two more stations in the current Lawrence East and Ellesmere SRT station.

True.

 

[Allandale25]

Well with the Scarborough Junction Grade separation, VIA would have had very good access via the Stouffville line, running the same service patten as GO's own Stouffville express trains (making one just intermediate stop at Kennedy). Cancelling the Scarborough Junction grade separation definitely limits VIA's ability to run fast service, similarly to how cancelling the Missing Link eliminated their opportunity for HFR West.

GO can still meet their objectives with Verster's cut-back infrastructure plans, it's just VIA who gets screwed.

It doesn't limit VIA's HFR plan if VIA simply spends the $140 million to do it. Since Metrolinx just did the leg work in the TPAP addendum for the fly under that should help. I'm sure GO gave VIA a heads up of the cancellation, so I assume they wouldn't be surprised.

 

[reaperexpress]

It doesn't limit VIA's HFR plan if VIA simply spends the $140 million to do it. Since Metrolinx just did the leg work in the TPAP addendum for the fly under that should help. I'm sure GO gave VIA a heads up of the cancellation, so I assume they wouldn't be surprised.

Once Metrolinx decides on a track configuration for each corridor, the USRC will be redesigned based on those configurations to minimize conflicts. The grade separation itself would be peanuts compared to the work in the USRC that would need to be redone.