News   Nov 22, 2024
 665     1 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 1.2K     5 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 3.1K     8 

GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

So is it possible that in the future, LSE won't have stops between Scarb and Union? That wouldn't be smart if such a thing happens. More like a grave mistake.

I don't think we know that for a fact. We were speculating on how far a four track right of way might take us before added tracks are needed.

The short answer is, if LSE and Agincourt stopping trains both make all stops to Union, we won't be running 5 minute headways on the Agincourt line, as the "Scarboro Treaty" has implied, because two tracks will have to be shared between the two lines. Running each line on ten minute headways, and interleaving, is about as good as it can get.

Similarly, 5 minute all-stops Agincourt trains and 15-minute LSE RER making only the current GO stops don't fit on two tracks. The RER trains will overtake the all-stoppers.

Two tracks have to be reserved for express service, ie VIA and express GO trains (as there currently are at rush hour).

- Paul
 
What is going on with the bridge in Pickering across the 401. They had some of the decorative lights on for maybe a week but nothing has been done on the main body for months?
 
Paul, are you planning to attend?

I'm a tentative at this point, but would love to know the discussion topics. If I do go, I'll make sure Park Lawn GO is discussed ad nauseum.

Im sure that the Park Lawn GO station (hopefully with a new streetcar loop) is going to get funded before the 2018 provincial election. At this point it seems like a no-brainer. The density is at Park Lawn, not Mimico.
 
Both stations have low-level platforms, however. (Kingston is slated to get high-level platforms, but I don't know when that is scheduled to be done.) I was referring to stations with high-level platforms.

And so was I. Kingston and Mansfield are predominantly low-level do have small high level platforms for accessibility.

You can see the ones at Mansfield at the beginning and end of this video:

And you can see the ones at Kingston at the beginning of this video:
 
Unless...you run a 5-minute stoppoing RER on two of the four tracks, routing it towards Agincourt, and an express RER that only stops east of Scarboro on LSE on a 15-minute headway on the other two, intermingled with VIA. You could give the stopping RER a fancy brand name. Like, say, Something-ending-in-Track.

LSE would need new signals, as the current block lengths are too long for 5- minute headways. The block lenghts directly correlate to how frequently trains can operate.

That leaves you with only 2 tracks for the VIA/Lakeshore East services - yet today you already need 3 tracks for that services east of Scarborough Junction, let alone once RER is complete! And that leaves nothing for the Stouffville non SmartTrack trains.
So, that's 5 tracks to GO Scarborough, and 2 tracks from GO Kennedy to GO Stoufville. That can sustain a 5-minute SmartTrack train, assuming resignalling.

Electrification all the way to the end of Stoufville line can mean GO can eliminate the diesel GO trains on the Stoufville line. So you use the same trainset.

The way to do 5-minutes on just 2 tracks -- is that the frequent 5-minute SmartTrack trains would short-turn at Unionville, but hourly or half-hourly, a SmartTrack train would continue onwards to Stoufville.
Thusly -- unified trainset for all Stoufville operations
Corridor width limitation problem solved.

At this stage, if you ran European/Japan style efficiencies on a unified trainset, you could run 5-minute service on just 2 Stoufillve tracks (with a few passing tracks).

Just saying, just saying, it's already being done on this planet.

You do not necessarily need that many tracks for 5-minute service, if you do some creativity other countries have done.

Union is the bottleneck, not a properly resignalled/electrified Stoufville using only one trainset.

4 tracks is plenty, given a proper resignalling/electrification without needing a unified trainset. Run the GO bilevel diesels on 2 tracks and the electrics on the other 2 tracks.

You do need more than 3 tracks for Union-to-Scarborough GO -- there's room in the ROW for 5 tracks with negligible expropriation -- and possibly 6 with some -- it's simply another megaproject similiar in league to Georgetown Corridor -- but a hell lot easier than trying to ram 4 tracks all the way through to Unionville -- and the grade separations are already there through to Scarborough, although the bridges will need to be widened. So, doing 5-track to Scarborough should be easier than the Georgetown Corridor megaproject.

Then you could make do with just 2 tracks beyond GO Scarborough all the way to GO Stoufville (with some 3-track passing segments) on the Stoufville spur if unifying the trainset by electrifying all the way to end of Stoufville. Which may even end up being cheaper than trying to quadruple-track to Unionville.
 
Last edited:
Then you could make do with just 2 tracks beyond GO Scarborough all the way to GO Stoufville (with some 3-track passing segments) on the Stoufville spur if unifying the trainset by electrifying all the way to end of Stoufville. Which may even end up being cheaper than trying to quadruple-track to Unionville.

Here's a simplistic back of envelopes model.

Assume Smarttrack has stations spaced 1.6 km's along the stretch from Scarboro Jct to Unionville.

Assume a top speed for ST of 60 km/h - it's that low because, like the subway, it doesn't have long to accelerate before slowing for the next station - requiring 45 seconds to reach 60, 45 seconds to decelerate, and 45 seconds dwell time in stations. That gives a top speed spurt of just 51 seconds before decelerating.

Assume the same equipment used for RER, with same acceleration, reaching top speed of 80 km/h.

Assume the RER is following the ST with trains spaced 300 seconds apart.

What this chart shows is - after 300 seconds, the ST train is about 3 km's ahead of the RER train. After 513 seconds, the ST train is stopped at a platform with the RER train about .59 km behind - a very short distance. The RER train has lapped the ST train.

So - you need passing tracks about every 5 km's. To keep things fluid, the passing tracks have to be long enough for trains to overtake at speed, and for overtaken trains to keep moving. I'd guess they have to be at least 1 km to fulfil this.

My point is - you will need an awful lot of passing track to allow RER and ST to coexist at significant tph values.

- Paul


Screen Shot 2016-01-30 at 10.20.57 PM.png
 

Attachments

  • Screen Shot 2016-01-30 at 10.20.57 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-01-30 at 10.20.57 PM.png
    59.8 KB · Views: 1,102
Here's a simplistic back of envelopes model.
You forgot these additional assumptions I have made for 5-minute operations on a 2-track corridor:

  • Assume there's no overtaking for smoothly operating SmartTrack and RER.

  • Assume SmartTrack and RER behave completely identical south of Unionville, including stopping at all stations south of Unionville.

Subways already do this routinely, even our TTC, at 2-3 minute cycles, by doing short turning at Eglinton or Sheppard, etc.
Same thing, but applied to SmartTrack + RER.

In this situation, passing tracks and crossovers will be needed for disabled/disrupted trains only.

(Distinguishing fares/ticketing are another matter altogether, but that can be solved by a tapout system -- details at this stage once we're beyond railroad corridor engineering.)

It's really all TBD stuff, though, it's just one of many options to make it possible if they had to shoehorn 5-minute service into SmartTrack. Certainly not an impossibility, just a logistics megaproject of making Stoufville fully compatible with SmartTrack 5-minute design requirement.

It probably wouldn't happen Ontario-wise, but Europe/Japan do the short-turning on electric commuter trains, just like TTC Yonge subway short-turning. RER and SmartTrack would be identical from the Stoufville Line perspective. It's not rocket science... I'm just saying it's technically possible if Ontario wanted to do it that way, and it's quite routine on two tracks, and our TTC already does the equivalent of RER+SmartTrack already for what I'm proposing.

It's just wholly possible that expropriation needed to get 4 tracks all the way to Stoufille could end up costing more (in both dollars and political capital) than simply just electrifying all the way to Stoufville, in order to unify the trainset to the point where RER+SmartTrack are just mere labels on the same train from the Stoufville line perspective.

Note: At the 5-minute level, there is actually no longer a need to run timetabled operations, and simply push the trains through the blocks as quickly as you can, subway-style. Technically, this leads to a logistics issue on deciding which trains to short-turn at Unionville, but those people could simply transfer if the Stoufville destination is reassigned to a different SmartTrack trains. GO does that today already (short turning trains on Lakeshore, and telling people to catch the next train), so it really is nothing new operationally. There's not very many people going north of Unionville anyway, so half-hourly SmartTrack trains going to Stoufville can probably do a best-effort scheduling, and only occasionally have to be kicked off to transfer to the next train during Unionville short turns. With electrification and the performance it allows, there will be plenty of room north of Unionville for a late SmartTrack train (the one assigned to go to Stoufville) to catch up to its Stoufville schedule without needing to tell people to catch a subsequent train during short-turn (TTC Yonge style). Assuming whole Stoufville-line electrification, plenty of grade separations, and small-granularity blocks -- most of the time, deciding which SmartTrack train goes all the way to Stoufville can become decided at Union whenever eastwards SmartTrack trains enter Union. Most of the time -- with only occasional dynamic reassignment of Stoufville to a different SmartTrack trainset whenever the route is running abnormally for any reason. Only then, only in that situation, passengers are asked to disembark to board the next Stoufville-destination train. Corridor capacity allowing, extra trains can theoretically be let through (e.g. a 15 minute-late Stoufville train from Union during 30-minute Stoufville service) so there ends up being 3 trains during a offpeak-hour to Stoufville where there is normally 2 -- in order to keep Union boardings and Stoufville boardings satisfied. Extra trains (like TTC does) would often be at strategic places (like TTC does) to fill gaps from operational abnormalities in untimetabled operation. It would be a logistics challenge, but not insurmountable.

Paris RER does something similar to what I am proposing for SmartTrack+RER and does it successfully on corridors that narrow to 2-tracks and 1-track at the Paris RER peripheries, running RER trains less frequently as peripheries are reached and trains either short-turn or spur-off. So technically the world is already doing service plans that manage to intersperse SmartTrack+RER. You look at the boards to figure out which destinations your train goes, so you don't board a short-turning train.

1280px-SIEL_-_RER_B_-_Direction[1].JPG

Credit: Wikipedia for Paris RER

All you do is stare at the board as the train arrives.
Is your destination lit?
Good.
Board that train.
That's it!


This solves the confusion for the confusing interspersing of Paris RER trains, that while scheduled, to a tourist they seem to randomly short-turn or spur-off, depending on the route.

In our case, for the theoretical merged trainset scenario I am saying -- all checkboxes for GO Union through GO Unionville will light up for ALL SmartTrack trains. But only once every half an hour (half hourly Stoufville), the checkboxes for that SmartTrack train, will also include stations north of GO Unionville (i.e. all checkboxes on the board will all light up simultaneously). Assuming EMUs and subway-style short dwelling, SmartTrack trains won't be slower arriving at Stoufville, despite the extra stops south of Unionville. Thus, no passing is necessary on the Stoufville line north of GO Scarborough, to shoehorn a 5-minute schedule in the core segment of Kitchener-Stoufville (the one being labelled "SmartTrack") while keeping a 30-minute or 60-minute schedule north of Unionville.

We don't know how the stations would announce the trains, but it's just a display board engineering issue, much like it was for RER. We'll probably be using video screens for the checkboxes, but it will be conceptually simpler than Paris RER for the "SmartTrack" trains that go all the way to Stoufville.

Even the two services SmartTrack+RER is still much simpler than the complexity that Paris RER is, so we probably don't need these elaborate video boards. We'd only need a flag "This SmartTrack RER train short-turns at Unionville" versus "This SmartTrack RER train continues to Stoufville". Many tracks in core segment, narrowing to double-track (e.g. GO Unionville) and even single-track in the peripheries (e.g. GO Stoufville).

What I am proposing for
-- 5-minute "SmartTrack" (the train short-turns at Unionville)
-- 30-minute "RER" (the train continues onwards to Stoufville)
is far, far, far simpler than what Paris is currently doing today.

So, yes -- what I'm proposing is far simpler than what Paris RER already does -- you will instantly realize this when you view the Paris RER B schedule document.

If you study a schedule like Paris RER B schedule the unitiated will be mind-boggled by the confusing spur-outs versus short-turns. Yet the core section (e.g. But the simple engineering of the RER display board (board the train that has your destination lit up) keeps things simple for commuters. You will see RER is as frequent as 3-minutes in core segments during peak.

So, you see, if Paris can mingle SmartTrack+RER schedule plans on several 2-track corridors, THEN SO CAN WE.

Given a theoretical 'blank check' that excludes triple tracking north of Scarborough -- I'm just saying the technical bottlenecks of bigger difficulty/expense are elsewhere -- the Union Station Rail Corridor -- and Toronto Union Station.

Now, THAT is the impediment to 5-minute SmartTrack (inner RER segment).
 

Attachments

  • 1280px-SIEL_-_RER_B_-_Direction[1].JPG
    1280px-SIEL_-_RER_B_-_Direction[1].JPG
    239.7 KB · Views: 2,489
Last edited:
GO and SmartTrack are the same thing. SmartTrack is just a marketing name for electrified service on the Kitchener and Stouffville lines and additional stations. There will only be one service running on the Stouffville line. The Kitchener line will probably have local and express trains though.
 
GO and SmartTrack are the same thing. SmartTrack is just a marketing name for electrified service on the Kitchener and Stouffville lines and additional stations. There will only be one service running on the Stouffville line. The Kitchener line will probably have local and express trains though.
I agree.

(Yes, we've disagreed in the past, but you've nailed it.)

That said, whatever unified electric service running on Stoufville line will probably short-turn at Unionville, for lower frequencies north of Unionville.
Much like TTC already does, for lower frequencies at the stops in the periphery of the Yonge Subway line.

Although, nothing precludes additional teirs for the same electric service. e.g. 5 minutes to Scarborough, 10 minutes to Unionville, and 30-minutes to Stoufville. It could go that way too with three cascading lower timetable frequencies for outer stations -- and still be much simpler than the interspersed complexity that Paris RER B is.

The Paris RER B is a single service despite its spurs and short-turns -- yet some stations are served every 3 minutes, others 6 minutes, others varying 3-6 minutes, some 9-12 minutes, yet others 15 minutes, and outer stations every 30 minutes, etc. It's so heavily multilayered, far more than the 2 layers that my RER+SmartTrack "unified service" suggestion really is. In Paris, you need to look at the board to know if it's going to stop at your desired destination (so you don't accidentally board a train that spurs-off or short-turns). The rule is simple for RER B though: If your destination is lit as the train arrives, you board that train. We wouldn't even necessarily have to go that elaborate for a 5-minute unified service on a Stoufville line that's 2-tracks to Unionville.
 
Last edited:
Oh, and here's a map of Paris RER B:

rerb.png

Credit: eutouring.com

Single Paris RER B service.
Some stations are served 3 minutes
Some stations are served 6 minutes
Some stations are served 12 minutes
Some stations are served 15 minutes
Some stations are served 30 minutes
Proof: RER B timetable

RER B has multiple spurs, despite being a single service, the UPX spur could just simply be treated Paris RER B style -- with every other electric train going to Bramalea and every other going to Pearson/Airport Corporate (over existing UPX spur, perhaps, basically replacing UPX).

Let's assume we electrify Bramalea all the way to Stoufville, plus UPX spur. So we roll UPX into SmartTrack (to free up corridor room for 5-minute SmartTrack), then the Pearson spur is simply another spur off the same service.

A single electric train service running on our existing GO/RER/SmartTrack/UPX/whatever corridors that has:
- 5-minutes Weston-Unionville (or Scarborough/Markham)
- 10-minutes Bramalea-Unionville
- 10-minutes Airport-Unionville
- 30-minutes Airport-Stoufville
- 30-minutes Bramalea-Stoufville
And it would still be simpler than how Paris RER B operates as a SINGLE SERVICE

(Not necessarily exact service plan, but you get the picture now)

This is SmartTrack
This is GO RER
same thing!!!!!!!!

Metrolinx already seems to understands this -- they're beginning to handle Hamilton this way. The Downtown spur on LSW, and the West Harbour spur on LSW. This is the Lakeshore West service but they spur off to two different stations when approaching Hamilton. Metrolinx already even mentioned sending every other RER train to Airport / to Bramalea, and it could still be a single service ala Paris RER B where you have to look at a board to decide whether to board the train.

GO is already beginning to do this today -- with LSW because of the two Hamilton spurs. I have to also look at the board nowadays to decide which train to board for Hamilton -- some LSW trains stops at Aldershot, one LSW train formerly short-turned at Oakville, some LSW trains continues on the spur to Hamilton West Harbour GO, some LSW trains continues on a different spur to Hamilton Downtown GO -- during evening peak period.

Lakeshore West as a "single service" yet has four different interspersed services during evening peak:
- Aldershot short-turn
- Burlington short-turn
- Hamilton West Harbour spur
- Hamilton Downtown spur
Isn't that sounding like a very simple version of Paris RER B already!
Still not nearly as complex as RER B either, though!
Despite this, Metrolinx treats Lakeshore West as a single service!

It's a routine habit of many peak commuters to verify that their LSW train will stop at their station. Now imagine merged RER+SmartTrack+UPX as another level of this same complexity of the same thing (but still much simpler than Paris RER). Obviously this will need to be accompanied by videoboard upgrades at all stations for massively improved clarity.

Even today, I wish Metrolinx would upgrade all the videoboards at all stations to clearly display which destinations the arriving train will stop at. So that it becomes a quick glance without waiting for text to scroll. Despite Paris RER B being way more complex than Lakeshore West, I find it easier with Paris RER B than Lakeshore West evening peak (with its 4 different services)!

Obviously, to pull off 5-minute service, would require a merger of electric UPX, SmartTrack, GO, RER, into this unified single train service -- and even this merged octopus is still simpler than Paris RER B with fewer different station frequencies and fewer spurs. Obviously a major clarity upgrade of all video boards will be needed to make a merged service less confusing, but this is a software engineering matter rather than additional tracks.

If there's a good resignalling initiative, it's just mere details, not track count (once we've double tracked to Unionville at least, and added more track on LSE to Scarborough).

In theory, we could even run the whole GO network this way, where we only have two or three services on GO that merges all the lines. Stoufville would simply become a spur off Lakeshore West, if we eventually someday decided to use the same trainset for both Lakeshore West and for SmartTrack / RER.

Soft-timetabling: Even if we don't go full untimetabled operation (subway style) -- we can still soften the timetable a bit like Paris RER does. This allows dwells to stay short. That means letting trains depart early to keep the 3-minute-later train more easily on timetable if unusual rail conditions favour that -- like filling an earlier unexpected gap in schedule because of a train taken out of service and there's a threat of a later schedule cascade due to temporarily lowered rail speed limits, etc. Paris RER does this strategically for their 3-minute services, because it's no big harm to depart early if the next train is 3-minutes later. This can prevent delaying trains behind during abnormal situations where departing early can prevent later schedule cascades. It's more important to stay on exact timetable in the peripheries (the 15-minute stations rather than the 3-minute stations). So it can feel somewhat feel like an untimetabled subway in the high-frequency core segment during peak. The trains will often "catch up" or "slow down" to get closer to their original timetable as they exit the ultra-high-frequency sections of the RER network. However, there can be quite a bit of timetable drift in the 3-minute sections to prevent cascades. So you're not fully untimetabled, but you're not hard-timetabled either.

Once you understand how RER+SmartTrack is a single service (like Paris RER B) when you conceptually think this way, it becomes possible to run 5-minute SmartTrack (assuming Union bottleneck is solved with a USRC resignalling, maybe slightly higher speed USRC crossovers, maybe high subway-style platforms with level boarding, short dwell time, possibly soft-timetabling (letting trains depart early) or untimetabled operation (like a subway). There are LOTS of ways to make 5-minute SmartTrack happen.

You just have to conceptually imagine the whole merged electric GO+RER+UPX+SmartTrack network as a mere two or three services of a Paris-RER-style lines with lots of spurs.

That's it.

Gradually, over the next couple decades, could become:
- Route Kingston-Stoufville (Bramalea+UPX+Airport Corporate+Unionville+Stoufville merger of all routes running over these destinations)
- Route Niagara-Bowmanville (LSE+LSW merger, with Oakville (old station) spur and Bowmanville spur, and all Hamilton spurs -- Downtown vs West Harbour/Niagara)
- Route Richmond Hill (low frequency diesel route only)

You've essentially merged the whole Metrolinx heavy-rail network into a mere TWO electric routes!

Each individual "route", much simpler than today's Paris RER B.

Trainsets may be different for each route. Much like RER A/B/C/D/E in Paris often use different trainsets. Route Kingston-Stoufville could use EMUs, while route Niagara-Bowmanville could use electric-locomotive-pulled bilevels.

Once the whole network is merged this way, in a Paris RER style manner, you surgically solve quite a lot of corridor-width problems. Run them with upgraded videoboards at all stations, and train clarity isn't a problem (consider: Electronic boards for the much-more-complex Paris RER B network, is easier than trying to interpret which LSW GO trains continues onwards to Hamilton)

Without needing much expropriation either.

Assuming Union is solvable, our corridors could do 5-minute SmartTrack with less corridor widenings than we think we need. Yes, assuming we solve the difficult bottlenecks (Union/USRC/UPX/crossovers/etc) and unify several Metrolinx services, and obviously, we have to resignal out the wazoo. And assuming no overtaking on 2-track corridors, obviously.

Assuming the solving of other bottlenecks elsewhere, we could achieve 5-minute SmartTrack on a 2-track Stoufville corridor (and a small bit of additional track to Scarborough, obviously -- probably 5 tracks total to Scarborough junction).

At this stage, it really a matter of money, not necessarily further track count than already planned.
 

Attachments

  • rerb.png
    rerb.png
    681.9 KB · Views: 4,855
Last edited:
Well, it all makes sense so long as your assumptions are valid - and they aren't.

ST and RER won't make the same stops. (If they did, they would indeed be one and the same)

RER won't add value if it has to make all ST stops between Scarboro and Unionville. 905 customers won't accept that slow a trip time (nor should they). The proposal to route ST to STC helps, because it creates gaps that help RER get though.

I think most people accept the 2-tier model where we can build 4-track corridors. That doesn't help us on this line however.

- Paul
 

Back
Top