Globe: Second NHL Team for Toronto?

[lordmandeep]

Well the British did win the war of 1812.

However that is only if you do not count that disastrous battle of New Orleans which happened right after the war ended.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

Trust the Yanks to celebrate a battle fought after a war ended!

 

[lordmandeep]

actually it was the fault of the British for not sending the message that the war ended in time.

 

[Kiwi]

Balsillie seeks 20-year lease at Copps for Hamilton team

May 13, 2009
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/565385

Hamilton council will be asked to approve a 20-year lease at Copps Coliseum as part of Jim Balsillie's effort to land an NHL franchise in Hamilton.

"It would mark the beginning of a strong and lasting partnership with the City to bring the NHL to Hamilton," Balsillie said in a statement to council late Wednesday afternoon.

"Hamilton has always been and remains now my first choice for locating a potential seventh NHL franchise in Canada.

"I am not considering any other site locations at this time," he said.

He called Hamilton "the best un-served hockey market in the world."

He cited the benefits for the local economy and the NHL as reasons for choosing Hamilton.

"This would be great for the Hamilton community, for a wide range of businesses, organizations and important causes that would be supported and stimulated by an NHL franchise in Hamilton. That has always been my view."

"We look forward to Hamilton City Council passing a motion tonight at its Council meeting to approve an option for a 20-year lease at Copps Coliseum."

 

[TOareaFan]

According to today's Globe.....

......part of the Balsillie plan is to spend $150 million improving Copps to current NHL standards.

Interestingly, only $30 million of that would be his own money and the balance would come from the federal and provincial levels of government.

So, a question for all the people who have been swept up (undertandably) in the euphoria of the make it 7 hockey nationalism is your support for this venture increased/decreased/unchanged by the news (today is the first I had heard it) that it will require a $120 million taxpayer investment? (a level of support far above any such investment that any of the existing 6 have received and you have to wonder where Winnipeg and Quebec City would be if the governments of the day had been willing to invest that sort of cash).

 

[Tuscani01]

......part of the Balsillie plan is to spend $150 million improving Copps to current NHL standards.

Interestingly, only $30 million of that would be his own money and the balance would come from the federal and provincial levels of government.

So, a question for all the people who have been swept up (undertandably) in the euphoria of the make it 7 hockey nationalism is your support for this venture increased/decreased/unchanged by the news (today is the first I had heard it) that it will require a $120 million taxpayer investment? (a level of support far above any such investment that any of the existing 6 have received and you have to wonder where Winnipeg and Quebec City would be if the governments of the day had been willing to invest that sort of cash).

Actually, none of the money is coming from the government. Balsillie is picking up the whole tab himself.

 

[ShonTron]

No, if Copps is to be totally re-built (which it can be to compete with the current box-filled 18,000-person arenas, it has the shell at least to fit all that), he wants government money to help pay for it. I agree that this is a drawback, but MLSE gets tax subsidies for its projects such as the GM Centre in Oshawa and the Etobicoke project for its practice facility, for example, and SkyDome was built mostly with tax dollars.

The city owns Copps, so as the landlord, if they get the money back in the lease, it's not so bad.

If this was pitched as a downtown revitalization "shovel-ready" initative, it could happen. How much money already has Hamilton sunk into downtown revitalization that didn't work, like the Civic Centre complex (tearing down blocks for the convention centre, Jackson Square, etc, or the York St widening/sterilization to York Blvd?). This could actually do better than all that.

 

[Whoaccio]

Is there any Olympic/PanAm facilities which could also function as a decent NHL arena? The only area I can think of would be an aquatics center (Olympic Pool is 50x25m (+ a diving pool), NHL arena is 60/26). Maybe any future NHL team could co-develop something for a possible Olympic bid. The main issue I could see would be making sure there are adequate corporate boxes.

Also, I thought it had become in vogue to develop sports arenas in tandem with major office/residential projects (Atlantic Yards, MLS) in order to recoup some of the high costs of stadiums. If an NHL team moved to Copps, wouldn't this option be a no go?

 

[TOareaFan]

No, if Copps is to be totally re-built (which it can be to compete with the current box-filled 18,000-person arenas, it has the shell at least to fit all that), he wants government money to help pay for it. I agree that this is a drawback, but MLSE gets tax subsidies for its projects such as the GM Centre in Oshawa and the Etobicoke project for its practice facility, for example, and SkyDome was built mostly with tax dollars.

MLSE does not own GM Centre they simply manage it......the practice facility is a partnership with the Lions club and provides a community use component so the real subisdy is to get that part built.

SkyDome (IMO) is not a relevant comparable. Not only was the fact that it was mostly taxpayer paid was an accident (ie. the overruns forced that....it was planned to be a much more even private public partnership) but it is more likely that other NHL cities/owners would have a beef with their new partner/competitor getting subsidy on their rink when no other city did.

The city owns Copps, so as the landlord, if they get the money back in the lease, it's not so bad.

Couple of problems I see with this thinking......why the city getting money back is a reason why the province and feds should fund the $120 requested I don't know......shouldn't the people who fund it get the benefit? Secondly (according to the Globe story) the lease deal with JB improves the city's bottom line by $2 million per year......so it would take 75 years to recover the investment....mmmmm can I amortize my mortgage over 75 years? pretty please!


It looks to be a bad financial deal .....now for job creation reasons it might get done but the numbers (as presented in the Globe) don't look good.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Also, I thought it had become in vogue to develop sports arenas in tandem with major office/residential projects (Atlantic Yards, MLS) in order to recoup some of the high costs of stadiums.

A city like Mississauga would be better suited for a mixed development like that.. Im surprised Mississauga has not been mentioned as a future NHL location.

 

[TOareaFan]

Actually, none of the money is coming from the government. Balsillie is picking up the whole tab himself.

You can read the Globe article yourself, I did not make up the $120 million of government money.

 

[adma]

No, if Copps is to be totally re-built (which it can be to compete with the current box-filled 18,000-person arenas, it has the shell at least to fit all that),

Which is probably the most sensible and prudent option: rebuilding/expanding within the existing envelope--all in all, Copps hasn't worn that badly after a quarter century, nor is it so integral to Jackson Square as to be stigmatized by it, and Hamiltonians seem proud of it, and the fashionable trend t/w imploding arenas after such a lifespan seems just so wastefully American...

 

[Tuscani01]

You can read the Globe article yourself, I did not make up the $120 million of government money.

I read the article, but was watching news at the time and (im pretty sure it was cp24) they claimed that Balsillie said the plan would still happen even if there was no support from the government.

 

[ShonTron]

MLSE does not own GM Centre they simply manage it......the practice facility is a partnership with the Lions club and provides a community use component so the real subisdy is to get that part built.

MLSE made out like bandits on BMO Field - it was subsidized according to agreements, but MLSE made extra when it got additional funds from the naming rights.

SkyDome (IMO) is not a relevant comparable. Not only was the fact that it was mostly taxpayer paid was an accident (ie. the overruns forced that....it was planned to be a much more even private public partnership) but it is more likely that other NHL cities/owners would have a beef with their new partner/competitor getting subsidy on their rink when no other city did.

Sorry, but I laugh when I read that no other city got subsidies for NHL arena construction or renovation. Pittsburgh, anyone?

I'm not wrapped up in the patriotic rah-rah about Basillie's bid - it's obviously his trophy in the mantle for the guy, but I root for him in the duke-out with Buttman, and the business sense of Southern Ontario/Hamilton vs. Phoenix. I've been there, and have a small sense of the culture there, and know what a stupid place that the farside of Glendale is for hockey, when a site closer to Tempe/Mesa or downtown Phoenix (why don't they share an arena with the NBA Suns?) is just dumb in a marginal hockey market to begin with. Ottawa at least is the kind of market that will put up with an equally dumb arena site (the far west end of Kanata being the Canadian west Glendale equivalent).

 

[TOareaFan]

MLSE made out like bandits on BMO Field - it was subsidized according to agreements, but MLSE made extra when it got additional funds from the naming rights.

MLSE was, at worst, very opportunistic in the BMO Field deal. The government funding came up about $10 million (or so, I am too lazy today to go back and check actual figures) short of the actual construction costs.....MLSE coughed up that money...if they hadn't the thing would never have been built (remember there was a looming FIFA tournament with a tight construction deadline)....in exchange for the upfront capital they got the naming rights (which was outside of the original management contract they had entered into)....which they then sold for a substantial profit....nice business but not a subsidy.

Sorry, but I laugh when I read that no other city got subsidies for NHL arena construction or renovation. Pittsburgh, anyone?

Sorry, I was referring to the other canadian nhl teams who have not been subsidized in their arenas (geez, in Ottawa the original owners of the team had to build their own highway off ramps!)......go back a couple of my posts and I think that reference to canadian nhl teams is a bit clearer......as well as the two canadian cities that lost nhl teams might still be around (might...not for sure) if the governments had gifted them $150 million (or the inflation adjusted "then equivalent" amount).