G-20 Summit in Toronto

[nfitz]

I'd give Toronto Police a A. Why? look at the results

The results don't justify the means.

No loss of life, no serious injuries to mention, and minimal damage to properties. (Imagine if one of the queen street store fronts had caught on blaze?)

If that were the end of the story I'd have given them an A. On Sunday afternoon I was prepared to say similar. But now that evidence of unwarranted police brutality has surfaced, along with the Queen/Spadina incident, and the clear strategy of targeting journalists, then that has diminish their mark. It's a C ... it's still a pass.

You can't give them an A when they are beating people. Those police who committed these crimes, need to be brought to justice, and their employment terminated.

 

[Catapult]

It's not a Generation Y thing, it's a Charter of Rights thing. Although, I suppose, you could argue that Generation Y is the first generation to grow up post-Charter so you may have a point, though maybe not the one you were trying to make.

Sure people had the right to be there but the "protest tourists" (I like that term) added to the confusion and were difficult to identify from the agitators. If you choose to be at the front lines you have foolishly put yourself at risk, are stoking the fires of chaos and accepted the possible risk of injury and detention. I am glad to see that at the end of the day the Black Bloc types accomplished nothing - the property damage they caused will be repaired within the week.

 

[adma]

I have to say, I hardly noticed the G20 event. I live in Cabbagetown, and walk all over the area, to Alan Gardens, etc. and didn't see a single protester, was never inconvenienced in usual automobile use, never even saw the security fence. Except for a few additional helicopters, I didn't notice a thing.

Well, duh. You didn't make a point of going where/when the action was.

I mean, I can say the same, but less blithely; that is, there was deliberation behind my version of "hardly noticing". I did my homework, and avoided all possible epicentres, or even the aftermath thereof, letting it all shake out as it may--it's only today that I came to actually see the boarded-up and shattered windows, et al. So in my physical daily activity, I "hardly noticed"; but in real terms, I very much noticed...

 

[nfitz]

That means protesters not claiming they were brutalized by being denied a second cheese sandwich ...

You managed to avoid the issue of the police beating people during the course of events. It's perhaps the biggest issue on the table, and you haven't touched on it.

 

[nfitz]

If you choose to be at the front lines you have foolishly put yourself at risk, are stoking the fires of chaos and accepted the possible risk of injury and detention.

Fair comment for those who were not local. But what about those who were? There are what ...about 40,000 residents in that area? Are they just supposed to lock themselves in all weekend? Let the dog pee on the floor? Not walk to the corner bar to watch the Argentina game?

I'm a bit outside area where protesters were ... and I certainly took pains to make sure I didn't come close ... but over the course of the weekend, I could have run into something that I hadn't have expected at King/Strachan or at Bloor/Bedford. I didn't, and it was peaceful when I was there ... but I was being careful to monitor the ongoing events, and keep away ... but many might not have been as obsessive as I was about checking twitter while moving through the city over the weekend.

 

[adma]

Jn_12
ok, fair enough. I have occcasionally been guilty of trying to get a rise, but only when I am incredibly frustrated at views I have come across.

Though by that calibre, I've already set the gold standard in this thread. And if what you're doing is "trolling"--much as I'm an anarchist's anarchist, I'm a troll's troll;-)

 

[Jonny5]

You managed to avoid the issue of the police beating people during the course of events. It's perhaps the biggest issue on the table, and you haven't touched on it.

I said "I am certain there were isolated actions by police that were not appropriate and hope those individuals affected pursue all legal action available."
What more is there to add? That we should seek revenge?

 

[nfitz]

I said "I am certain there were isolated actions by police that were not appropriate and hope those individuals affected pursue all legal action available."
What more is there to add? That we should seek revenge?

Missed that ... but it doesn't seem isolated. In the case of journalist reporting for The Guardian there were at least 2 other police officers who observed what happened. If it was isolated, they would have then arrested the other officer, or at least reported it to a superior. However there is no evidence that happened.

 

[Catapult]

Fair comment for those who were not local. But what about those who were? There are what ...about 40,000 residents in that area? Are they just supposed to lock themselves in all weekend? Let the dog pee on the floor? Not walk to the corner bar to watch the Argentina game?

I'm a bit outside area where protesters were ... and I certainly took pains to make sure I didn't come close ... but over the course of the weekend, I could have run into something that I hadn't have expected at King/Strachan or at Bloor/Bedford. I didn't, and it was peaceful when I was there ... but I was being careful to monitor the ongoing events, and keep away ... but many might not have been as obsessive as I was about checking twitter while moving through the city over the weekend.

Yes - don't go out if a riot is happening outside your front door unless you want trouble - this is obvious. Who walks home through or takes their dog for a piddle in a riot? Most people would have had enough time to have removed themselves from the melee.

 

[buildup]

Why couldn't they, you know, provide water or get someone's diabetes pills? This is Canada. You're innocent until proven guilty in a court. In fact, I'd sincerely hope that if a criminal was in need of pills s/he would get them when they were needed.

Things like racism and sexism should never be tolerated within our police forces, yet it was on hand here.

Now, in light of you admitting that you're just here to troll, this is the last time I'm responding to you. It's completely unnecessary to do what you're doing and it does absoluetly nothing for this community.

Well jn_12, I'll answer you. I never mind getting the last word. This insistence of yours in latching onto inconsequential events. I few posts back I joked about a hazing incident I was subjected to 20 years ago which i got over. You advised me to take hazing more seriously. Not everthing has to be so deadly serious (my hazing...).

But to your post. I can't say why finding diabetes pills is difficult on a Sunday nite at 3AM because I've never looked.

And some very inapproprate humour was used by the police in the holding facility, its regrettable but not the end of the world. I'm sure it was a very rude day overall with hurt feelings on both sides. How many cops were called "fascist" that day? Do you know any cops, personally, as opposed to the ones you call when you're in trouble? I can assure you some cops are profoundly insulted at that word, easily as insulted as the girl who was described as "attractive" by a detaining officer.

Your closing comment about whether my postings serve (your) community are undemocratic, overly earnest. Perhaps the police who were on the receiving end of thousands of equally annoying comments also lost interest in dialogue.

p.s. I am not a cop.

 

[nfitz]

Yes - don't go out if a riot is happening outside your front door unless you want trouble - this is obvious. Who walks home through or takes their dog for a piddle in a riot? Most people would have had enough time to have removed themselves from the melee.

I don't recall much rioting on Sunday, and none today. At least two of the large-scale arrests were of peaceful protesters. The Queen/Spadina one on Sunday in particular, was of a location where there had been transit service operating not long before the police surrounded everyone. The TTC didn't announce any problems with 510 Spadina service until 5:53, after the police had surrounded the intersection. There is every reason to think that there were people simply using transit.

 

[js97]

You can't give them an A when they are beating people. Those police who committed these crimes, need to be brought to justice, and their employment terminated.

You keep on harping on that issue... where is the proof? Broken bones? bruises? Is throwing someone on the ground and twisting their arm considered assault? A shot in the rib so they stop struggling?

Nothing can prepare you for the tension and potential disaster that these police officers had to deal with.

Their primary objectives are:
preservation of themselves,
preservation of life,
and preservation of property - in that hierarchy.

That is the directive of the police, and from that standpoint, they did an excellent job.

Would you have been given the police an A+ if they stood there and debated with people while our city got destroyed?


It's not a perfect situation, and I don't think how anyone could expect it to be.

HOw do you know these journalists were not the ones that where trying to incite violence and encourage some protesters to get out of hand so they would get a reaction from the police. Trying to elevate tension so they could get some 'compelling shots' to sell to a paper or TV station? Ever thought of that? In fact, that's probably what they where trying to do... Journalists from CTV, CBC and other accredited media reporters where allowed behind the lines (from the shots they where taking).


Freelance journalists are NOTORIOUS for shady practices to get their story.

 

[nfitz]

You keep on harping on that issue... where is the proof? Broken bones? bruises?

Bruises, scrapes, eye-witness statements collaborating the events by award-winning journalists. What more do you want? The police were beating people. At least on Saturday evening.

 

[buildup]

Why couldn't they, you know, provide water or get someone's diabetes pills? This is Canada. You're innocent until proven guilty in a court. In fact, I'd sincerely hope that if a criminal was in need of pills s/he would get them when they were needed.

Things like racism and sexism should never be tolerated within our police forces, yet it was on hand here.

Now, in light of you admitting that you're just here to troll, this is the last time I'm responding to you. It's completely unnecessary to do what you're doing and it does absoluetly nothing for this community.

Well jn_12, I'll answer you. I never mind getting the last word. This insistence of yours in latching onto inconsequential events. I few posts back I joked about a hazing incident I was subjected to 20 years ago which i got over. You advised me to take hazing more seriously. Not everthing has to be so deadly serious.

But to your post. I can't say why finding diabetes pills is difficult on a Sunday nite at 3AM because I've never looked.

And is some very inapproprate humour was used by the police in the holding facility, its regrettable but not the end of the world. I'm sure it was a very rude day overall with hurt feelings on both sides. How many cops were called "fascist" that day? Do you know any cops, personally, as opposed to the ones you call when you're in trouble? I can assure you some cops are profoundly insulted at that word, easily as insulted as the girl who was described as "attractive".

Your closing comment about whether my postings serve (your) community are undemocratic, overly earnest. Perhaps the police who were on the receiving end of thousands of equally annoying comments also lost interest in dialogue.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Would you have been giving the police an A+ if they stood there and debated with people while our city got destroyed?

Well you know, they did. Is that why you gave them an A+?

And remember what happens to basically every person that comes up with any evidence whatsoever that something might have gone wrong? Yeah, "the information is false." I'm not normally one to side with all the conspiracy theorists, but in general cops get off bad actions way too often. Anyone who does come in with a bruised face or broken rib is just gonna be called a hoax and should be ashamed of themselves for trying to smear the good name of the police, yadda yadda yadda.

Bottom line, the police realized that they did something wrong when they didn't come to the city's rescue as people sacked Yonge St. The next day, they drastically overcompensated and clamped down on the city. That's very, very unprofessional when you're trying to keep liberty and peace, and is the kind of thing that you actually see more in police states. Then on top of that, there's general poor planning (on the police's part, we've already established that holding the G20 in the city was a stupid idea.) Poor execution, and what would initially appear to be poor individual police conduct. It's a big event, so they know that whatever wrongs they did will get forgotten in the haze, which I think seems to have given them the same sense of leaping into things headfirst and acting badass as the Black Block guys had, only they can't be charged for it.