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G-20 Summit in Toronto

For people claiming people shouldn't be in the area if they didn't want to be taken in by police. There may be many reasons, they were there. I've read a couple was passing by on their way home to Trinity-Spadina. There wasn't any news posted in advance to avoid the Queen St path if you want to go home. Also some people who went to work were detained and locked up. People have to make a living. Is that their fault? Some people were on their way to take the bus home and got jailed. I'm not saying it's easy to distinguish who are the culprits and who are innocent, but there are innocent by standers caught in the net.

What I read that was upsetting was police didn't do anything when the first police car was attacked. There was no strategy how to handle it. They police were told to stand back and keep in formation so they won't get into the security zone. They were protecting the VIP and ignoring vandalism to businesses and their cars set on fire. If the police had acted faster for the people, I wonder if there would have been less damage. First police car was vandalized at 3:35, then set on fire later. By 4pm the police weren't chasing after the culprits still. It was told even the police were running for their lives.

http://thestar.blogs.com/g20/
11:11 a.m. Accusations of strip-search on women by male police officers

Three people in their 20s have just held a news conference to talk about police treatment during the summit.

Amy Miller, Jesse Rosenfeld and Adam MacIsaac describe themselves as independent media and allege police refused to accept their ID. They didn't have G20 media accreditation, but say they did have ID.

Miller, who lives in Montreal, charges male police officers gave women a full strip search and many returned to their cells at the Eastern Ave. detention centre traumatized and crying.

MacIsaac says he was repeatedly kicked in the ribs and stunned with a stun gun. He showed the marks on his body. He says police ignored him when he told them that he has a pacemaker. The incident happpened at Bloor and St. Thomas, he says.

MacIsaac is from Prince Edward Island.

Rosenfeld, who lives in the Middle East, says he was reporting for the British newspaper The Guardian, which has described him as a contributor to their open Comment is free website. MacIsaac says he had $6,000 in camera equipment stolen and was told to "file a complaint" to get it back.

All three, who were held for many hours in the detention centre before being released today, say they haven't filed complaints yet, but are considering it.

Free strip show for the police.


In their planning the police would have assumed this was a short-term (eg 24 hours?) holding facility so that conditions didn't need to be more than austere.

9:59 a.m. 15-year-old released after 33 hours

btw if you wanted a rise, you should have worked at the jail/detention centre so you could strip all the females and feel your power over them. Big men making girls cry are hot right?
 
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Jn_12
ok, fair enough. I have occcasionally been guilty of trying to get a rise, but only when I am incredibly frustrated at views I have come across. Let me put a practical question to you. I have read the article above (twice now). And I agree conditions sound very uncomfortable.

What sort of conditions do you think you would have been able to guarantee had you been in charge in light of all the things going on. We need to keep in mind the police are not omnipotently capable of handling and anticipating every contigency, so I ask you to not use use hindsight.

In their planning the police would have assumed this was a short-term (eg 24 hours?) holding facility so that conditions didn't need to be more than austere. Right?

Had any serious violence occured (on the scale of Seattle for example) to people or property the police would have been held accountable.

Well from accounts, there were a lot of officers standing around within the facility doing a lot of nothing. Why couldn't they, you know, provide water or get someone's diabetes pills? This is Canada. You're innocent until proven guilty in a court. In fact, I'd sincerely hope that if a criminal was in need of pills s/he would get them when they were needed.

Perhaps you can't control the temperature in the building, but that's the smallest of the issues and I'm sure was only amplified by the other problems. Things like racism and sexism should never be tolerated within our police forces, yet it was on hand here.

Mind you, all of this could have been prevented if innocent people weren't detained. There were more people detained at this summit than any other G8/20 summit, and considering the images I saw all weekend, that seems like an excessive response to what happened.

Now, in light of you admitting that you're just here to troll, this is the last time I'm responding to you. It's completely unnecessary to do what you're doing and it does absoluetly nothing for this community.
 
I think too many people are looking at the situation far too much in black and white when it's all shades of grey... remember everything happened very quickly and police had to make fast decisions - some of which will obviously be strongly debated for a long-time. A couple thoughts on the various players.

Black Bloc: I think they were more organized then people give them credit for. From my observations being right in the thick of it, they waited to emerge until the crowd was on the verge of exploding on its own, even without their antagonizing role. They also waited until the march was at its most westwardly point drawing police resources away from the central core - then they moved very quickly to the core and by the time police mobilized their forces there, expecting a confrontation at the fence - they rampaged Yonge Street where there was little to no police presence and then went straight to Queen's Park to dissipate back into the broader more peaceful protestor crowd. When you think about it, it was actually a very good strategy for a bunch of thugs.

Peaceful Protestors: Unfortunately their legitimate role in this whole affair was greatly diminished by the violent acts of the minority. Their messages were also hard to decipher - some had very broad public support such as more regulation for the oil industry and climate change awareness, others were downright extreme such as supporting Maoist politics in north america and others were just bizarre such as 9/11 being an inside job. In my opinion the message was too watered down and spread out to resonate with average every day Canadians even through there were some good messages in there. I also believe that once a full scale riot was occurring in the city that the peaceful protestors should have called it a day rather then getting caught up in the too predictable 'police state' drama which puts legitimate protestors in a dangerous confrontational role with the police as the trouble makers used the peaceful protestors to their own advantage. It was a sad state of affairs that has left a very bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

That ‘grey’ area of protest: These people were neither Black Bloc anarchists nor peaceful - and there were a lot of them. I saw a lot of people expending much more energy trying to incite police violence then actually protesting anything G20 related. I'm sorry, but Charter Rights for peaceful assembly doesn't include screaming and yelling at police in the desperate hope that they take on an aggressive response so as to later lay claim to police brutality. There were a lot of people on the street actively engaging with the police. As I said before – why were so many protestors claiming to be peaceful, yet covering their faces and brining items such as sky/swim goggles, ear plugs and various makeshift & real gas masks… why were so many protestors spending all their energy challenging the police rather then any of the issues they have with the G20 or current state of geopolitics? … a lot of people were looking for trouble this weekend, and soon as they found it they claimed that the police over-reacted. All too predictable and sad.

The police: They are in an absolutely no win situation. On Saturday the general consensus is they didn’t do enough and on Sunday the general consensus was a massive police over-reaction. We had full scale riots on Saturday and on Sunday people who shouldn’t have been, were detained. We know police are just human and there is a wide range of people that undertake police work ranging from beefy guys that may enjoy some of the ‘action’ to meek mannered people who wouldn’t hurt a fly and have the utmost respect for the rule of law. We also have reports of harsh treatment at the detention centre (I ask what do people expect? Prisoners that battled in the streets with police and/or legitimate protestors caught in the cross-fire to emerge with pleasant stories of their experience?).

The Police continued: It is very hard to gauge what all really went down (shades of grey I’d suggest). No one was killed or seriously hurt. From being on site at Queen & Spadina and then Bay & King when the action all occurred I can say that I’m stunned parts of Yonge or Queen did not burn to the ground – it was total chaos for at least an hour and the police had lost control. As for what happened at Queen’s Park – well it was no longer a peaceful protest was it? We can second guess now all we want, but what if the police dispersal and arrests hadn’t occurred? Maybe nothing but a peaceful protest… or… maybe as it was starting to get darker the violent factions hiding within the larger legitimate group would have made their way to Bloor Street to continue the destruction even further away from the majority of police resources? Was there the potential for violence at Queen & Spadina on Sunday? Unfortunately there are many questions and we’ll never know what would have happened if the police responded differently. And had they responded differently there would be a host of other questions directed at them about their tactics.

G20 Leaders: Funny how the big mess in the streets has resulted in little to no discussion on the leadership groups talks. Whatever your political background and whatever your thoughts are on the G20, the fact is some important bi-lateral discussions and meetings took place and nobody seems to have noticed.

My overall thoughts: It was a big mess and everyone came out as losers. The City of Toronto has a black-eye and the world was watching as parts of the city were destroyed. The peaceful protestors didn’t effectively deliver their message to the government leaders, the media or the masses and got caught in the cross fire. The aggressive protestors got some action, but many ended up ruining what was supposed to be a legitimate peaceful protest for everyone else. As for the Black Bloc, I desperately hope many of photos taken over the weekend will result in very serious criminal charges against many of them. The police are taking a beating in public opinion and everyone is second guessing their actions. Ordinary citizens have had to live through a weekend of hell. Overall shades of grey and lots of losers.
 
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Mike, very well and fairly stated again... you should run for mayor!

I find buildup's comments to be enlightened and entertaining... I agree with much of what he is saying. so what if he uses language that colourfully illustrates the stupidity and whininess of the brats that got rounded up? How can people come out and act like fools in public and then feel justified in complaining that they havent been served breakfast in bed. Prisons... and in this case a holding center are designed to scare some sense into people who are unlucky enough to find themselves inside. You know what - I used to be a punk shit disturber when I was younger too. In trouble with the cops many times. I came to hate it and eventually realized that if I stopped being such a jackass that I could live a normal hassle free life. And I also came to take responsibility for my own actions, not always pointing the finger and blaming others for the mess I got myself into.

now why dont you all go get a job and get off the internet... dont you have anything better to do? ;)
 
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I am horrified how quickly everyone here has turned on the police. After what happened on Saturday, I hardly blame them for taking such precautious measures. I keep hearing these myths of "police brutality" and showing youtube clips out of context does not help either. I for one, do not care that those detained were not given a pillow and a massage after being arrested. From what I saw, the protesters acted anything but peaceful (throwing rocks, jeering, taunting) and I think the police did an excellent job.

I don't understand why knee-jerk liberals feel the need to throw the police brutality argument everytime someone is arrested or detained. How do you expect them to act in a situation of such chaos?
 
Reminder that innocent bystanders who were caught up in the mess at Queen & Spadina are basically the same people who slow down traffic on the highway to gawk at accidents, soooo...
 
I don't understand why knee-jerk liberals feel the need to throw the police brutality argument everytime someone is arrested or detained. How do you expect them to act in a situation of such chaos?
Uh-huh... and to balance things out, here's some level-headed observations of police overreaction for knee-jerk conservative apologists.

http://twitter.com/spaikin
 
What I don't understand is why there were no police on Yonge Street, the day of the riots? I walk along Yonge Street every day and all week there were hundreds of police, every day but when I walked up, about an hour after the Black Bloc had trashed the place, I couldn't see one single officer. I know the priority was the G20 leaders but what about the people of Toronto? If those Black Bloc thugs would have started attacking people, there would have been nobody there to protect them. It seems like the world leaders were the ONLY concern and the police could care less about Torontonians.

I also don't know why the police didn't take the Black Bloc out of the parade earlier? It was clear from the beginning, that those guys were organized and looking for trouble. They all had their faces covered and were quite aggressive in preventing people, including myself, from filming them. When I filmed the parade, 3 of them jumped in front of me, covering up my camera and pushing me back from the sidewalk. It was clear these fuckers were gonna start some real trouble. So why did the police let them go their own direction and stay together as a mob. They should have moved in and surrounded them right at Queen Street. Yonge Street should have been lined with police, as everybody knows that's where rioters always seem to go.

One thing you have to give Torontonians credit for, is the fact that there was almost no looting. When I walked up Yonge Street, I saw lots of stores wide open and I did not see one single person steal anything, even when merchendise was in close reach. If this was a different city, especially in the USA, I'm sure people would have taken advantage of the situation. (Broken windows, lots of good stuff and NO COPS, ANYWHERE!) It could have been much, much worse than it was. I found the people on Yonge Street to be quite calm.

I agree with you, letting the Black Bloc people get past the intersection of Queen was possibly a mistake. They were a well-defined group between Richmond and Queen, marching north with their idiotic Chairman Mao banners, a procession about 50-75m in length, with about 25m of space north and south (most of the numerous casual urban warfare photographer wannabes south of Richmond were intimidated), there were only 20-30 people close to them not dressed in their distinctive uniforms. At that point, riot police could have cordoned them off and allowed them to proceed up Yonge entirely surrounded. It would have taken a large number of riot police (>400?) for a two-deep cordon, there would have been a very large risk of confrontation with crowds north of Queen (watch the unbelievable 9min raw CTV video of the crowd there egging on the hooligans--I doubt these irresponsible people were all Black Bloc sympathisers, but they certainly enabled them to continue the riot, and they were anything but helpful when someone tried to effect a citizen arrest), but decisive action would have at least spared us most of this terrible black eye event.

Alternatively, north of Queen was the kind of situation where smaller groups of police (with lighter riot gear) might have used the much decried "snatch-and-grab" operations to put out of action the kind of punks shown in the CTV video. Again, rubber-neckers and wannabe urban warfare photographers would probably have been injured too, but that is also the consequence of "war"!

But in such a rapidly evolving situation mistakes are made, decision & command lines are long, and, in any case, police are wise to err on the side of caution, since they always pay a heavy public price for mistakes. Nor are Toronto Police exactly rich in experience of how to deal with Black Bloc tactics--thank goodness, one might say!

And for those who think the only consequence of this kind of event is just property damage by hooligans: it always goes further, to loss of legitimacy of reasonable street demonstrations, to a disinclination of politics-as-usual to deal with unpopular, marginalized groups and their issues, and the polarization of public opinion around the same. In other words, some more erosion of public life, communication and values.
 
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G-20 Summit: The Aftermath...

Everyone: After reading thru 20 pages plus of this topic I spoke too soon remembering the violent protests of anarchic groups
in opposition and I hoped that Toronto would get thru this weekend without major problems or disruptions-but as I read this could not be further from the truth noting the major vandalism across large sections of Downtown Toronto let alone the confrontations that were posted between Police and demonstrators - I did see a video on local NY television showing at least one of the burned Police cars but I was disappointed in the TV coverage I saw noting the problems that Toronto had.

I now think that instead of spending major money and inconveniencing a major city for a extended time these summits need to be held at a venue like perhaps Banff or Lake Louise (Canadian venues-my thoughts) or someplace similar so that perhaps they will
cause less disruption as compared to holding the Summit in a major city.

I definitely was disappointed to see what went down in Toronto in the last week concerning the wanton vandalism that I and others here noted and hopefully it never happens again...

Thoughts from Long Island Mike
 
Hi all, I thought I’d pass along my rather long first hand account of the events being a downtown resident and being right at Spadina & Queen Saturday when the riot broke out and being at right at King and Bay when the two police cruisers were torched (literally hiding behind planters as the rounds of ammunition exploded in the cruisers as the fires burned).

It was indeed a surreal scene – my wife and I were out shopping and went for a walk down to the so called peaceful protest to see first hand what was going on. I think the media and most comments I’ve seen on UrbanToronto and other forums seem to divide the crowd into the “peaceful” legitimate protestors and the Black Bloc, my experience suggests there is a large group of so called “peaceful” protestors that occupy a grey area in the middle. They weren’t black-bloc who from what I saw numbered maybe around 100, but there were several hundred other hardcore protestors who were claiming that they were being peaceful and that it was some kind of ‘police state’, yet they felt compelled to bring bandanas, ear plugs, goggles, make shift (and in some cases real) gas masks down to a ‘peaceful protest’ – it go ugly very quickly.

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A flare went off at Spadina and Queen just as tensions between the so called ‘peaceful’ protestors and police were hitting a tipping point. I just love how groups of people claiming to be peaceful wave the peace sign with their two fingers in the air while screaming at the top of their lungs as an angry mob face-to-face with police trying to provoke them so they can claim police brutality after – police showed remarkable constraint considering what I saw and I don’t think the media images on tv came anywhere close to depicting the venom and tension between police and so called ‘peaceful protestors’. The flare that went off was obviously a signal that shit was about to go down. It was also obviously coordinated to occur when tensions reached a peak and also when the police presence was drawn quite far to the west likely exposing the eastern flank.

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Within moments of the flare going off there were suddenly a significant number of black clad youths charging through the crowd moving east – the police had left Queen Street clear for the protest allowing these people to move very quickly. Many of the other so called peaceful protestors (I don’t mean to be disrespectful to the truly peaceful and legitimate protestors, but there were hundreds of non-Black Bloc protestors that essentially became an angry mob) – while these people didn’t necessarily join in on the destruction (some did) many also donned bananas and followed the lead of the Black Bloc and headed east…. Maybe not the best idea, but my wife and I decided to follow (I have sent in some photos to the police to help identify some of these thugs).

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I saw mindless destruction on Queen. I saw a few police not armed in riot gear in full retreat running for their lives – the first time I’ve ever seen total fear for ones life in the eyes of a police officer in Toronto – it was scary. I’ve seen comments on this board about why didn’t the bystanders stop what was happening – easy to say from looking at photos and seeing images on tv. The air was so thick with tension & hostility you could cut it with a knife and it was a volatile situation. Yes there were the few black bloc, but there was also a large angry mob of people – I think Toronto was lucky to escape with only the damage that was done – had one Molotov cocktail or incendiary device been tossed in one of those stores the fire department wouldn’t have been able to get there for a long time and it would have been all too easy for a block of Queen Street to burn to the ground.

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The crowd was moving quickly, my wife and I quickly fell behind but followed the damage to Bay Street – at this point the scene was surreal and the police had lost control. The Black Bloc tactic appeared to have been to draw the police westward with the general protest and move quickly to the east and head for the fence drawing the police there (the left leaning and anarchist web-sites had advertised a violent take down the fence protest) and then quickly leaving that scene to head north where the was little police presence on Yonge to cause destruction and to regroup with the larger and more peaceful protest at Queen’s Park in the hopes of blending in an not getting caught – they used the larger crowd as camouflage.

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King and Bay seemed like a war zone. My wife and I were quickly walking south when we started to see flames and suddenly the mob turned north and was in full panic sprint. I thought I heard someone yell “bomb” and a girl near us yelled “I don’t know why they are running, but just run!” – we ran north a block then we stopped and more people were heading south – at this point my wife had enough and left. I was curious (probably not a good thing). And continued to Bay and King – at this point the Black Bloc along with many other very angry protestors were trashing everything in sight and up on top of a second police car just as riot police started moving in. Many then ran east on King and I gather that’s when the rampage of Yonge street started. I think the police expected them to move south to the fence and were caught by surprise when they all went east and then north. I didn’t follow.

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I got caught with little options as to where to go with riot police closing in from the north, west and south – a mounted unit had also arrived on scene and myself and many others were concerned the gas tanks were going to explode and I just wanted to get as far away as possible – I kept along the edge of FCP and sprinted south to the TD pavilion and then east to Commerce Court West and hid behind the large flower planters figuring that would be somewhat safe if there was an explosion. A stupid protester was nearby yelling on a megaphone that the “police state” riot cops should all leave “because this was a peaceful protest” and the police should “stop harassing and intimidating protestors” – all while two cruisers were burning less then ten meters away and rounds of ammunition started exploding in the trunks.

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Riot police moved in quickly pushing a growing mob east towards Yonge Street. At this point there were no Black Bloc, just so called regular “peaceful protestors” – all yelling at police, claiming they had the democratic right to be there and to protest and complaining of police brutality etc – all in a very very angry and confrontational manner with a backdrop of smoke and burning cruisers in the heart of the financial district. Some had their faces covered in bandanas – many didn’t. The objective of many of the so called “peaceful protestors” appeared to me to be a strategic attempt to provoke the police so they could then lay claim to a police over-reaction and brutality. I’m sorry but the charter right to peaceful assembly ends when a full scale riot begins and yet I think I heard the words “this is a peaceful protest” more then any other words uttered that afternoon.

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I’d had enough and just wanted to go home. I tried to head north on Yonge, but police had blocked the intersection of Yonge and Richmond, I then tried going back south, but Adelaide was blocked off, so I took a mid block shortcut through a passageway and then due to other roadblocks again ended up on Bay Street.

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Once again there was an angry mob (again not Black Bloc) of protestors pressed up again a police line that was at least three or four officers deep. They repeatedly claimed to be peaceful – I’m sure many were and others were like me, just sort of stuck down there and observing – but a good 10% - 15% wore bandanas covering some of their face and maybe 5% - 10% had other ‘peaceful protest’ necessities such as ear plugs, goggles, various gas mask type things etc. It was very tense – they mixed different chants that ranged from comical to downright hostile towards the police – I’m rather amazed that things didn’t turn really really ugly –the people at the very front line seemed to have a single objective to provoke the police to attack – yes it was all very ‘peaceful’.

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I managed to get out of the area and walked up Yonge Street surveying the damage on the way back to my home at Bay/College. My wife had been trapped in a lock-down at the Metro grocery store in College Park for nearly an hour while the riot took place outside – many people in the store were very scared. I saw a range of destruction on Yonge Street and again I’m amazed sections didn’t burn to the ground – all it would have taken was one Black Bloc protestor to light one store on fire and I’m certain an entire block would have burned to the ground. The damage didn’t appear to be targeted to corporate companies and seemed random at this point. I saw independent shop keepers in tears sweeping the glass up in front of their stores and people walking around in bewilderment – it was shocking to see this in my Toronto.

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Once back home I had a front row seat from my condo balcony to the commotion at Queen’s Park. I recognize this was supposed to be a ‘safe protest zone’ and I’ve heard a lot of negative commentary about police action on this site – but I’m sorry, the peaceful protest was over and large swaths of Queen Street, the financial district and Yonge Street had just experienced a full scale riot and those that caused most of the damage were using Queen’s Park as a rendezvous point to dissipate back into the crowd. And from what I could see yes there were many peaceful protestors that got caught in a very bad situation, but there were also many challenging the police. Looming in the distance I could see a smoke column rising from Queen Street as two more torched police cars burned. In the background on the tv I could distinctly hear one protester saw something like “We are going to destroy Bloor Street now” – at this point the peaceful day was over and it was time for the police to shut everything down – it was getting dark and I truly thought that parts of the city would burn – I had just seen first hand the destruction and mind set not only of the Black Bloc, but of many many others that got caught up in the mob and in the riot – many of whom over and over again used the words “peaceful protest”…. Even an hour or so after police had broken up the protest at Queens Park I heard glass smashing at about 9:00 as the CIBC at Bay & College right across the road from Police Headquarters had all the windows smashed in.

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Some of the events Sunday (especially at Queen & Spadina) were an obvious over-reaction by police… but given what happened Saturday and seeing it first hand we Torontonians are lucky that things didn’t tip even more out of control. There was a full scale riot on our streets and for a good couple hours despite the massive police presence, they had lost control of the streets.

Mike: This is a great example of what exactly went down in the past weekend in Toronto and I was disappointed with some of the news coverage of the G20 in the USA - I figured that UT would be a prime place to look for this information and I was right...
Long Island Mike
 
I think too many people are looking at the situation far too much in black and white when it's all shades of grey... remember everything happened very quickly and police had to make fast decisions - some of which will obviously be strongly debated for a long-time. A couple thoughts on the various players.

Black Bloc: I think they were more organized then people give them credit for. From my observations being right in the thick of it, they waited to emerge until the crowd was on the verge of exploding on its own, even without their antagonizing role. They also waited until the march was at its most westwardly point drawing police resources away from the central core - then they moved very quickly to the core and by the time police mobilized their forces there, expecting a confrontation at the fence - they rampaged Yonge Street where there was little to no police presence and then went straight to Queen's Park to dissipate back into the broader more peaceful protestor crowd. When you think about it, it was actually a very good strategy for a bunch of thugs.

Peaceful Protestors: Unfortunately their legitimate role in this whole affair was greatly diminished by the violent acts of the minority. Their messages were also hard to decipher - some had very broad public support such as more regulation for the oil industry and climate change awareness, others were downright extreme such as supporting Maoist politics in north america and others were just bizarre such as 9/11 being an inside job. In my opinion the message was too watered down and spread out to resonate with average every day Canadians even through there were some good messages in there. I also believe that once a full scale riot was occurring in the city that the peaceful protestors should have called it a day rather then getting caught up in the too predictable 'police state' drama which puts legitimate protestors in a dangerous confrontational role with the police as the trouble makers used the peaceful protestors to their own advantage. It was a sad state of affairs that has left a very bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

That ‘grey’ area of protest: These people were neither Black Bloc anarchists nor peaceful - and there were a lot of them. I saw a lot of people expending much more energy trying to incite police violence then actually protesting anything G20 related. I'm sorry, but Charter Rights for peaceful assembly doesn't include screaming and yelling at police in the desperate hope that they take on an aggressive response so as to later lay claim to police brutality. There were a lot of people on the street actively engaging with the police. As I said before – why were so many protestors claiming to be peaceful, yet covering their faces and brining items such as sky/swim goggles, ear plugs and various makeshift & real gas masks… why were so many protestors spending all their energy challenging the police rather then any of the issues they have with the G20 or current state of geopolitics? … a lot of people were looking for trouble this weekend, and soon as they found it they claimed that the police over-reacted. All too predictable and sad.

The police: They are in an absolutely no win situation. On Saturday the general consensus is they didn’t do enough and on Sunday the general consensus was a massive police over-reaction. We had full scale riots on Saturday and on Sunday people who shouldn’t have been, were detained. We know police are just human and there is a wide range of people that undertake police work ranging from beefy guys that may enjoy some of the ‘action’ to meek mannered people who wouldn’t hurt a fly and have the utmost respect for the rule of law. We also have reports of harsh treatment at the detention centre (I ask what do people expect? Prisoners that battled in the streets with police and/or legitimate protestors caught in the cross-fire to emerge with pleasant stories of their experience?).

The Police continued: It is very hard to gauge what all really went down (shades of grey I’d suggest). No one was killed or seriously hurt. From being on site at Queen & Spadina and then Bay & King when the action all occurred I can say that I’m stunned parts of Yonge or Queen did not burn to the ground – it was total chaos for at least an hour and the police had lost control. As for what happened at Queen’s Park – well it was no longer a peaceful protest was it? We can second guess now all we want, but what if the police dispersal and arrests hadn’t occurred? Maybe nothing but a peaceful protest… or… maybe as it was starting to get darker the violent factions hiding within the larger legitimate group would have made their way to Bloor Street to continue the destruction even further away from the majority of police resources? Was there the potential for violence at Queen & Spadina on Sunday? Unfortunately there are many questions and we’ll never know what would have happened if the police responded differently. And had they responded differently there would be a host of other questions directed at them about their tactics.

G20 Leaders: Funny how the big mess in the streets has resulted in little to no discussion on the leadership groups talks. Whatever your political background and whatever your thoughts are on the G20, the fact is some important bi-lateral discussions and meetings took place and nobody seems to have noticed.

My overall thoughts: It was a big mess and everyone came out as losers. The City of Toronto has a black-eye and the world was watching as parts of the city were destroyed. The peaceful protestors didn’t effectively deliver their message to the government leaders, the media or the masses and got caught in the cross fire. The aggressive protestors got some action, but many ended up ruining what was supposed to be a legitimate peaceful protest for everyone else. As for the Black Bloc, I desperately hope many of photos taken over the weekend will result in very serious criminal charges against many of them. The police are taking a beating in public opinion and everyone is second guessing their actions. Ordinary citizens have had to live through a weekend of hell. Overall shades of grey and lots of losers.

Mike: This is again a good overview of this past weekend's "Players" and I found your descriptions quite interesting...LI MIKE
 
The G20 Summit and protests are today's update on The Big Picture.

My mom's brother (my uncle) is the protester (Jim Duncan) in the 9th photo down up in Huntsville, it was him and three others in the "protest area". He came into the city on Saturday and actually made it down to the security fence. He kept his 5 metre distance away from the security fence at Bay & Front, protested with a small group of 50 or 60 other PEACEFUL protesters and then left after about 20 minutes on his own accord; mission accomplished. He walked back up to Spadina station then made his way home by subway.
 
I'm leaving this at it's original scale because you need to be able to see the types of people they were keeping pent up in that area. It's baffling.
G20.jpg

I think I can count a handfull of people that might meet the description of the violent rioters. As has been mentioned, had police done nothing and that handful become violent the police would have been raked for not doing anything, they did the opposite and now they were heavy handed. Lose lose situation.
 
lots of losers, but he only people this went well for is the g20 leaders themselves, while everyone else is distracted, they went through with business as usual
 
any evidience of 'brutality' outside of norm?
What? Isn't Steve Paikin's eyewitness account of police beating another journalist proof? Despite this very clear and compelling account, the police are still denying they did anything wrong. Clearly they are lying, and if they will lie about one incident, they are likely lying about more.

I'm sure they did some good work over the weekend, but the abuse and brutality, particularly of those who did nothing wrong, is inexcusable, and requires the resignation of the Chief of Police.
 

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