Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Amare]

LRT has higher capacity limit than BRT (even with artic buses), I guess that's the reason LRT got selected for Finch West.

One can argue that since BRT is cheaper, more coverage can be achieved with BRT than with LRT for the same price. But on the other hand, if the demand eventually exceeds the BRT capacity, then it will have to be upgraded to LRT and the street will have to be ripped up again. In that sense, LRT is more future-proof.

Cancelling Finch West or replacing it with BRT wouldn't save much money for subways, even if it was done before the contract signing.

In short, I think LRT is right-sized for Finch.

I wish I could sticky this to the top of this thread.

The last thing we need to do with Finch, is to make the same mistake Vancouver made with the Canada Line. Although i'm pointing out two completely different technologies, it's a prime example here in Canada of how shortsightedness and under building can really mess a transit network up severely.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although the CL was certainly built with scandalously small stations, the CL, unlike the Finch LRT, is still very much rapid transit while Finch very much isn`t The only similarities with Finch and rapid transit is the price. A BRT would be just as fast, still have more than enough capacity {double articulates are common in China, SA, and Europe}, have the benefit of interlining getting rid of transfers, extensions would serve many new districts and tens of thousands of more people, would be much easier, quicker, and less disruptive to build, is more flexible and reliable, doesn`t require the construction of a new maintenance/storage facility, and is far more easily expandable as BRT to areas further east of Yonge and/or south to meet up at Renforth and the Miss Transitway.

The ride on LRT would be more comfortable but outside of that it loses to a BRT system on nearly every metric. Curious, how much is the new storage/maintenance facility for the LRTs going to be costing?

 

[APTA-2048]

have more than enough capacity {double articulates are common in China, SA, and Europe},

No manufacturer has received CMVSS certification for a bi-articulated bus. Van Hool at one point had the AGG300 in their North American literature, but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere beyond that. Also a 40-50m LRV is still bigger than a 24m bus, especially if you couple two together.

have the benefit of interlining getting rid of transfers

They would be largely doing this with the 36 right now if it was warranted. Are travel patterns such that it's worth branching service?

would be much easier, quicker, and less disruptive to build, is more

Have you seen or experienced Rapidway construction in York Region?

doesn`t require the construction of a new maintenance/storage facility

Where are all these buses supposed to be stored, cleaned, and maintained? If you do get bi-articulated buses, can any of the existing Divisions accommodate them?

expandable as BRT to areas further east of Yonge and/or south to meet up at Renforth and the Miss Transitway.

How much are you really saving by building a BRT? Is it really indeed enough to get another line built?

 

[WislaHD]

I agree that the Finch West corridor could have been BRT. But the corridor is also well suited for LRT.

I am not really opposed to LRT, in some ways it is future proofing over BRT for not considerably much more money. I just want something to be built, period. End the delays.

 

[BurlOak]

Curious, how much is the new storage/maintenance facility for the LRTs going to be costing?

Likely more than the entire BRT would have cost.

 

[lead82]

At this point, Finch West should just get a BRT with some more express like stops. This line will be one to be cut. At this point, it's an isolated rail line and would likely be that way for a long time. If funding is to be cut, this line is the place to do it. Built a VIVA-style BRT with Van Hools or Zum like buses and save the money to add more stops to Scarborough extension since it's going through come hell or high water.

 

[Hopkins123]

^ VIVA-style BRT is all that was ever needed and would have been operational years ago had our ambitions not been too high.

Also, remember that the impressive and highly successful Mississauga BRT Transitway came in at only a mere $259 million. This insistence in transforming Finch into the next Queen St detracts from the primary function of building rapid transit - to get people moving ASAP.

 

[Hopkins123]

Likely more than the entire BRT would have cost.

$259 million = the entirety of the Mississauga Transitway

Food for thought!

 

[lead82]

This is the problem with some left-leaning councillors and Mayors. It's not subway vs LRT vs nothing. We need to look at options and see what the environment looks like. Subway is needed only on the busiest corridors where other routes are at capacity and there is no room above ground (aka King corridor - DRL). Outside of that, LRT is good in around core areas where it can be a fairly dense network as it's expensive to build track (e.g. Eglinton) or as the main heavy line in smaller cities. As for the suburbs, where roads are wide and distances are far, BRT is much more suitable as it provides a more cost effective option and doesn't require a huge capital cost to both build and operate. BRT would be great for Finch, Sheppard, Steeles, Jane to name a few. The problem with the current suburban bus routes that the TTC runs is that they are too flow and unreliable. Give them a ROW and they will do wonders. Look how great the York U busway was for speeding up travel time. It was cost effective and provided an efficient ride until subway opened (Some even miss the old 196 as it was faster than the current subway line given all the recent signal issues on the brand new extension).

 

[adrianaliu]

u dont even need brt u can literally just paint red bus lanes like on the manhattan avenues. would vastly improve service and cost peanuts in the grand scheme of things. I dont wanna see this cancelled though too much progress has been made. But the city should be considering bus lanes and median brt in the inner suburbs, I just hope they learn from vivas mistakes and avoid 6 lane arterials + 2 brt lanes that just ruins the street for pedestrians

 

[lead82]

Agreed. Toronto should do 4 lane arterials + 2 lane BRT, plus left-turning lanes and transit signal priority (transit goes first no matter what). The point is to speed up service and make it reliable.

 

[W. K. Lis]

$259 million = the entirety of the Mississauga Transitway

Food for thought!

Cost of just the McNicoll bus garage, minimum $181 million+ (2015 dollars).

 

[WislaHD]

u dont even need brt u can literally just paint red bus lanes like on the manhattan avenues. would vastly improve service and cost peanuts in the grand scheme of things. I dont wanna see this cancelled though too much progress has been made. But the city should be considering bus lanes and median brt in the inner suburbs, I just hope they learn from vivas mistakes and avoid 6 lane arterials + 2 brt lanes that just ruins the street for pedestrians

Agreed. Toronto should do 4 lane arterials + 2 lane BRT, plus left-turning lanes and transit signal priority (transit goes first no matter what). The point is to speed up service and make it reliable.

You don't even need a painted line.

Just change the intersections to allow queue-lane jumping.

 

[rbt]

$259 million = the entirety of the Mississauga Transitway

Finch LRT is roughly the same price after you drop the 2 underground sections (which would be expensive as bus too), adjust for inflation, and expropriations.

You can halve the price of Finch just by moving the subway and Humber college portions above ground.

 

[Rainforest]

For the first time in forever, Finch West is getting something good coming its way. Maybe it is getting more than the bare minimum it needs (a BRT probably could handle the demand for some time).

Light rail still has some advantages over BRT, and that's not just a smoother ride. A smoother ride is nice but isn't that important. But in addition, light rail will have 2X to 3X the capacity limit compared to BRT running artics, and it should save on the labor costs because fever drivers will be needed to move same number of passengers.

All eastern and western extensions that could be done for BRT, can be done for LRT as well.

The cost differential does exist between BRT and LRT, but the amount is modest compared to what is implied by our grand transit plans that include multiple heavy rail lines.

I wouldn't be too disappointed if Finch West was designed as BRT from the onset. But if it is getting something one notch better, I really don't see any need to be grumpy. Let's hope the LRT happens as planned.