Finch West Line 6 LRT

[smallspy]

http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/mi...25W2PW0?paf_gear_id=9700018&itemId=102600573n

Even if it went over budget, $600 million is still half what the 11 kilometre LRT on Finch will cost and that's assuming it too won't undergo major cost overruns.

You may want to re-read that article - it's very, very clearly written prior to the beginning of the construction. Look at the tensing in the section labelled "Construction and Funding". It likely dates to 2007 or 2008, when the funding arrangements were finalized.

And sure, the Mississauga Transitway is projected to be about less than half of the cost of the Finch West LRT. Which one was or is being built through an already developed area? I would expect that no matter what they built on Finch West, it would have cost a lot more than the Mississauga Transitway.

Honestly, an exclusive BRT may have been fine for Finch West, although I would worry that it would also require grade separation due to the frequencies required. That would likely bring the cost up to be close to what the Finch West LRT is currently projected to cost. And in any case, the contracts have been signed - that ship has sailed at this point.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[robmausser]

I wouldn't say that. the idea of an LRT along the northern stretch of the City dates back to 1963 as a sort of half loop line running from Kipling to Kennedy via the Finch Hydro Corridor. It then cropped up again in the late 70's as the Etobicoke RT. It fell off the radar after the ERT was unceremoniously dropped; however given the ridership of the Finch West bus I think it was inevitable that the idea would crop up again for a third time. Difference is we are actually building it now.

EDIT* It was also planned to be a GO Line under the GO ALRT scheme. Seems pretty amazing we had essentially 3 decades of planning transit around the Finch area, and then we suddenly stopped.

Just adding to the history of events: Rob Ford cancelled the Finch LRT in 2011 in favour of a BRT that ran in the Hydro corridor

https://torontoist.com/2011/01/the_pinch_on_finch_west/

Its often forgotten as the focus was on Scarborough.

https://torontoist.com/2012/02/transit-showdown-at-city-hall/

 

[Rainforest]

I'm very wary of transit project cancellations. It would be wrong to cancel Finch LRT, and it would be wrong to cancel SSE.

 

[Steve X]

Flexiposts?

They won't last considering how many trucks are in that area.

 

[raptor]

I was thinking about it. Instead of an expensive cancellation of this project, Dougie should announce phase 2 of Finch LRT, extending it East to Finch Stn., and West to the airport. Make the extensions grade separated (I may not agree with it, but it would be smart of him to go for it, politically). May even collaborate with the winning bidder to have them deliver the extensions.

 

[rbt]

Just adding to the history of events: Rob Ford cancelled the Finch LRT in 2011 in favour of a BRT that ran in the Hydro corridor

At no time, that I'm aware of, did Rob attempt to start a new EA with the terms changed (no vote brought to executive council, TTC, or council), either the area being reviewed or adjusting the goals of the project in favour of a BRT.

He did bring forward votes to cancel Finch outright; but not with a replacement option on the table.

 

[robmausser]

At no time, that I'm aware of, did Rob attempt to start a new EA with the terms changed (no vote brought to executive council, TTC, or council), either the area being reviewed or adjusting the goals of the project in favour of a BRT.

He did bring forward votes to cancel Finch outright; but not with a replacement option on the table.

Then you are wrong. Its literally in the article I posted.

The Mayor’s Plan (Rob Ford)
The mayor is famously opposed to building rail on city streets; his first day in office he therefore proclaimed that previous plans for light rail were “dead.” His plan calls, instead, for the following:

• Take the $8.4. billion committed by the province to pay for the above transit projects and allocate the whole of it, in the first place, to the construction of an Eglinton LRT that is fully underground.
• Fold the Scarborough RT replacement into the Eglinton LRT line.
• Take any remaining funds once the Eglinton LRT has been fully paid for, up to $650 million, and put that towards constructing a subway on Sheppard.
• Use other sources of funding, including as much money as can be obtained via the private sector, to construct the Sheppard subway.
• Expand service on Finch with bus rapid transit (BRT)

https://torontoist.com/2012/02/transit-showdown-at-city-hall/

Steve Munro spoke in detail about it on his blog

https://stevemunro.ca/2011/05/15/the-mythical-finch-west-brt/

At its meeting of May 11, 2011, the TTC considered a preliminary report on the Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) options for the Finch West Corridor. This scheme arises from the non-binding Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between Mayor Ford and Queen’s Park (not yet presented to Council for ratification) that replaces the proposed Finch LRT with unspecified improvements to bus service on Finch between Finch West Station (at Keele Street) and Humber College. The staff presentation to the Commission contains additional information, notably costs estimates and some operating details that are not in the report itself.

Links to the report and MOU

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com.../May_11_2011/Reports/Opportunities_for_Im.pdf
https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/march-mou.pdf

 

[FW36]

I think the finch west lrt should be extended to Kipling station than Humber college on the lakeshore

 

[rbt]

Then you are wrong. Its literally in the article I posted.

Sure, we know he put a line on the map. Folks at Urban Toronto do that too on a regular basis.

I said it was never brought forward as a option on a vote. It was unfunded during Ford's entire term and he never attempted to get funding for that alternative option.

The MOU was changed to say "Metrolinx will do nothing" from "Metrolinx will build an LRT". Metrolinx was not going to build anything bus related on Finch. Likewise, the TTC commissions, executive council, and city council were not asked to fund an EA for an alternative option.

A BRT EA takes 6 to 9 months and costs 1 to 2 million; Ford had at least that long while in full control of council, he could have gotten such a thing started.


Here are the stages:

1) Is it feasible (a few days work performed by a single person on salary) <-- This is what got done for Finch Bus improvements: BRT is one of about 10 options. The majority of this work came from the Express Bus proposal put forward under the previous mayor. This is literally throw away work; the large majority of these reports have no followup.
2) Expansion on feasibility (small team, perhaps even an engineer; still salaried employees)
3) EA: Does the public actually want it and what are the impacts? Actual funds committed here.
4) Detailed design for a tender. Now we're looking serious.
5) Actual construction. It might actually happen.

Each step gets more expensive. Ford did the free step (minimal staff commitment possible). People of UT also perform that free step on a regular basis in the Fantasy Map thread. What Ford put forward, unless I missed a council vote somewhere for Finch bus project funding which I missed, was just as serious as the Fantasy Map thread despite a more official appearance.

 

[robmausser]

Sure, we know he put a line on the map. Folks at Urban Toronto do that too on a regular basis.

I said it was never brought forward as a vote. It was completely unfunded during Ford's entire term.

The MOU was changed to say "Metrolinx will do nothing" from "Metrolinx will build an LRT", and the TTC commissions, executive council, and city council were never asked to fund an alternative option. There was no attempt at committing capital funds toward the project; not even a couple million for an EA.

A BRT EA takes 6 to 9 months and costs a couple million; Ford had at least that long while in full control of council and did not attempt to begin such a thing.

A preliminary feasibility report doesn't count for much when there is no intent to follow through.

Here are the stages:

1) Is it feasible (a few days work performed by a single person on salary) <-- This is what got done for Finch Bus improvements: BRT is one of about 10 options. The majority of this work came from the Express Bus proposal put forward under the previous mayor.
2) Expansion on feasibility (small team, perhaps even an engineer; still salaried employees)
3) EA: Does the public actually want it and what are the impacts? Actual funds committed here.
4) Detailed design for a tender. Now we're looking serious.
5) Actual construction. It might actually happen.

Each step gets more expensive. Ford did the free step. People of UT also perform that free step on a regular basis in the Fantasy Map thread. What Ford put forward, unless I missed a council vote somewhere for Finch project funding which I missed, was just as serious as the Fantasy Map thread despite a more official appearance.

Wow talk about shifting the goal posts.

All I ever said was that Ford brought forward the idea for a BRT, and you said

He did bring forward votes to cancel Finch outright; but not with a replacement option on the table.

And I just gave undeniable proof that he wanted to bring forward an option for BRT, not the cancellation of Finch outright.

Yes, it didnt get to an EA, but that wasnt Fords doing, it was city council, who voted against him to bring back Transit City.

I realize it never went forward, but Ford wanted a BRT on Finch, it was part of his plan to scrap transit city.

 

[rbt]

And I just gave undeniable proof that he wanted to bring forward an option for BRT, not the cancellation of Finch outright.

I guess that's where we differ; I don't consider a paper that took a single staffer a week to write as evidence he wanted a BRT.

IMO, anything less than a 1% commitment to the total cost by a politician isn't taking the proposal seriously; and Ford's contribution (both actual and attempted) to the Finch BRT proposal is way below 1%. He could have written the BRT option the Metrolinx MOU as something for Metrolinx to follow through on as a replacement to their LRT work; instead he took it as a city project and promptly abandoned it through lack of budget commitments.

A change in plans without a genuine commitment to the change is a cancellation in disguise. Changing a project, then quietly defunding it, is a pretty common technique politicians use to try and minimize criticism; as a polisci major Ford would have been well aware of the technique.

 

[syn]

Sorry but the conservative leaning crowd here needs to makeup their mind. Are you wanting to splurge on subway as before or do you want to as much money as possible with a BRT? 'Anything but LRT' isn't a logical position.

I think there's a legitimate argument to be made for a BRT. That said, the LRT, even at $1.2 billion, is vastly different from other projects proposed in the city. For one, they're not removing any existing rapid transit stops to implement it. It's also 11km long and has 18 stops, with a lot of potential for growth and expansion.

Relatively speaking, it's quite reasonable, even if it's not the most cost effective solution.

 

[BurlOak]

I was thinking about it. Instead of an expensive cancellation of this project, Dougie should announce phase 2 of Finch LRT, extending it East to Finch Stn., and West to the airport. Make the extensions grade separated (I may not agree with it, but it would be smart of him to go for it, politically). May even collaborate with the winning bidder to have them deliver the extensions.

You want phase 1 to be on-street - and the extension east to Yonge and south to Pearson to be grade-separated?

A giant bottleneck to transit expansion now is the on-street Eglinton. Because of this - Ford will not fund the extension west to the airport or east to UTSC.

 

[nfitz]

A giant bottleneck to transit expansion now is the on-street Eglinton. Because of this - Ford will not fund the extension west to the airport or east to UTSC.

I don't think Ford has the ability to comprehend the issue to this degree. Remember when he wanted to get rid of the SRT because it interfered with car traffic? You give him too much credit.

 

[raptor]

You want phase 1 to be on-street - and the extension east to Yonge and south to Pearson to be grade-separated?

A giant bottleneck to transit expansion now is the on-street Eglinton. Because of this - Ford will not fund the extension west to the airport or east to UTSC.

I don't want that, but I can see Doug might do this, in order not to breach the existing contract.