Evocative Images of Lost Toronto

[BeeRich]

What, like building airplanes, maybe...? You're arguing out of both sides of your face here.

Selling airplanes through subsidies is not really a sale, is it? Matching other crooked countries in order to "save an industry" is completely backwards.

 

[Goldie]

Wow! I only displayed the photo because it's a famous piece of Toronto history.
This is no place for a political debate.

 

[Lone Primate]

Selling airplanes through subsidies is not really a sale, is it?

If it's your job, it sure is. Every one of those sales doesn't just mean the guys building the plane. It means the guys forging the steel and aluminum that go into it. It means the guys who mine the iron and bauxite. The guys who mold the tempered glass. The guys who make the electronics that fly the thing. The guys who supply the materials for that. On and on down the line. Industry upon industry. But if the sale goes to someone else, so do those advantages. So does the support for those jobs. And guys here lose those jobs for want of the demand. Instead of paying taxes, they draw on national and provincial revenues. They don't buy cars. They don't buy TVs. They don't take vacations. And all those industries feel the pinch. That's why nearly all those guys who worked for Avro all left Canada. They didn't want to, most of them; they had to. This country no longer had a use for their skills. NASA and Boeing did. So their kids grew up as Americans, went to American schools paid for by their well-paid fathers down there instead of up here.

You need to be able to think beyond the moment. These things are important. And I'm as cynical as the next guy, but not every business deal is actually a criminal conspiracy.

 

[Lone Primate]

Wow! I only displayed the photo because it's a famous piece of Toronto history.
This is no place for a political debate.

You picked the wrong plane, then.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here; this is the War Room!"

(Dr Strangelove.)


Regards,
J T

 

[Mustapha]

"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here; this is the War Room!"

(Dr Strangelove.)


Regards,
J T

The worst thing about the Avro program shutdown was the cutting up by blowtorch of these planes. Although 5 aircraft does not comprise anything useful as an air force unit; these could have served as testbeds for hire. At the very least they should have been mothballed.

A continuation of the program might have had Canada duplicating Sweden's SAAB fighter jet experience - a homegrown military jet with some - albeit small - export contracts - which arose about the same time and continues to this day.

 

[BeeRich]

If it's your job, it sure is. Every one of those sales doesn't just mean the guys building the plane. It means the guys forging the steel and aluminum that go into it. It means the guys who mine the iron and bauxite. The guys who mold the tempered glass. The guys who make the electronics that fly the thing. The guys who supply the materials for that. On and on down the line. Industry upon industry. But if the sale goes to someone else, so do those advantages. So does the support for those jobs. And guys here lose those jobs for want of the demand. Instead of paying taxes, they draw on national and provincial revenues. They don't buy cars. They don't buy TVs. They don't take vacations. And all those industries feel the pinch. That's why nearly all those guys who worked for Avro all left Canada. They didn't want to, most of them; they had to. This country no longer had a use for their skills. NASA and Boeing did. So their kids grew up as Americans, went to American schools paid for by their well-paid fathers down there instead of up here.

You need to be able to think beyond the moment. These things are important. And I'm as cynical as the next guy, but not every business deal is actually a criminal conspiracy.

<snip> Edited because I don't want to take all this out on you in here. You obviously don't get it, and I'm not going to demonstrate that and lose my access to this thread.

 

[BeeRich]

If it's your job, it sure is. ....

pffft.

 

[Lone Primate]

Get an education in business, first of all. Second, get your head outside of a union mentality. 100% of unions are whining about something these days. Of course, their wonderful education has brought them nothing. Nor do they actually feel so "engaged" into what they do that they try to become management. But in the meantime I will entertain your obviously limited view. This should prove hilarious.

None of this presents a single substantive rebuttal of the chain of enterprise I mentioned. You're simply indulging in ad hominem attacks on me on the one hand, and flatly gainsaying what I said on the other.

Taxation of a country shouldn't go to supporting people that make no money for the country.

If a $10 rebate helps you make, say, a $150 sale (because it undercuts the competition's $155 price tag), on what basis do you suggest that "makes no money"? Do you think the country is served by that sale going to another country and us keeping the ten bucks?

Second, those jobs don't belong to those that fill them.

And being unemployed doesn't pay the bills. I don't know about you, but quite frankly, I'd rather live in a country that's willing to use tax revenues in creative ways to keep people working than just collect money for its own sake and let an unimaginative reverence for laissez-faire dogma ruin lives and limit potential. There's a balance to be struck. I'm old enough now to see things in shades of grey. I mean no offense, but honestly, you sound like someone too young to have lived outside of monochrome yet... and the very very bright side of monochrome at that. And if I’m wrong and you’ve seen something of the world, well, I find the lack of compassion and empathy you’ve garnered in your travels evidenced here as kind of disconcerting.

And your pure ignorance shows that you have no clue where provincial and federal "revenues" come from.

I was under the impression it came from direct and indirect taxation levied on both individuals and corporate entities; the sale of financial instruments to individuals, corporations, and foreign governments; investments made in Canadian and foreign industries; and the revenues accruing from certain government services and some Crown corporations, directly responsible to particular departments, designed to disburse some services. Am I mistaken in my understanding of government sources of revenue?

They buy everything that you think they do not buy.

Yes, because they're employed (and, strangely, given your bent, by a government in your example). That was my point. Spending a certain amount of tax revenue to maintain employment helps to grease the wheels of the economy in general. Of course, you don't want it to go the point that every dollar you bring in from one job goes out paying another, but a moderate amount, spent with due diligence, is a good thing. Arguably essential.

Avro people were smart. They have little employment here because there are better opportunities elsewhere... Or let me guess...if Canada becomes a jerk off country like the US, we can attract brainiacs like you to go overseas

You don't seem able to stay on-message from one paragraph to the next. In one breath, you're praising people for having the gumption to move to the US when opportunities here didn't match their skill set... and then in the next, you're excoriating people for doing it.

Now, I don't know what you do, or what you've learned. I've been careful not to attack you personally or pass judgement on you on the basis of your points; you really haven't done anything but that since a certain point last night. I can tell you you really have the wrong take on me. I live in 416, not 905. I don't smoke and I don't drink even socially. I'm university educated, I'm not in a union and never have been (though I value their contribution to establishing the privileges I enjoy as an employee today), and I work in collateral education for one of the largest corporations on Earth, where every day I deal with co-workers in other countries, some of them literally on the other side of the planet. So I'm not as ignorant as all that.

 

[BeeRich]

I'm not continuing this. If you want to debate this stuff, I'm sure we can find a forum.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

I'm not continuing this. If you want to debate this stuff, I'm sure we can find a forum.

Great photo, but this debate would be completely different if the "Reds" had actually launched an attack on the Canadian arctic. Would have brought new meaning to the term "Cold War".

"We now resume our normal programming...."

 

[Lone Primate]

The worst thing about the Avro program shutdown was the cutting up by blowtorch of these planes. Although 5 aircraft does not comprise anything useful as an air force unit; these could have served as testbeds for hire. At the very least they should have been mothballed.

That's always been the part that seemed the most vindictive to me. It's one thing to cancel a program. It's another to do your best to erase any hint the thing ever existed. I have a feeling the idea was that, the tough decision having been taken (for whatever reason; you hear dozens), the Diefenbaker government wanted Canadians to forget the thing as soon as possible... never have even an unfinished one to point to and remember that dark day. I felt privileged indeed to be able to see the salvaged landing gear of one at the ROM a few years ago. A shame we weren't allowed to photograph it. What a keepsake that would have been.

A continuation of the program might have had Canada duplicating Sweden's SAAB fighter jet experience - a homegrown military jet with some - albeit small - export contracts - which arose about the same time and continues to this day.

That's just what I think. I think the Arrow would have mainly been for us, suited to our needs. A few other countries might have had a use for a few dozen of them to do multi-role work in colder environments, and we could have kept all those engineers here. Who knows what kind of civilian aviation projects they also might have undertaken? Bombardier's doing us proud these days, but imagine if we hadn't had that 30 year gap. What might have been? We'll never know.

 

[Mustapha]

What might have been? We'll never know.

A scenario:

Those 5 Avros; supplied with spares, could have kept at least a kernel of the domestic military aerospace R&D and manufacturing industry alive; instead we get to make wingtips for American concerns looking to 'up' their Canadian content and do engine overhauls for even more American flying hardware today instead.

Those 5 Avros; flown gently to keep airframe hours down, on Arctic sovereignty overflights since the 1950s up to this day, packing modern stand off anti-shipping missiles and assisted by Canadian developed maritime reconnaissance aircraft, would have given us a big voice at the table when they discover oil up there, as they surely will.

Those 5 Avros: only one of which is needed to waggle it's wings in salute as an American submarine pops to the surface up there, of which they seem to be doing more of these days.. would have earned us grudging respect (and perhaps even some from the Russians). Sure, they can think they might try and blow all the Avros out of the sky a few a hours after the ball drops, if they can find our multiple hard shelters with multiple exits. In the meantime, we'll just wait..

 

[BeeRich]

Great photo, but this debate would be completely different if the "Reds" had actually launched an attack on the Canadian arctic. Would have brought new meaning to the term "Cold War".

"We now resume our normal programming...."

If my aunt had wheels, she would be a tea cart.

 

[Goldie]

The good old days!