Evocative Images of Lost Toronto

[JCodd]

The building in the background is North York General Hospital - still under construction at the time. The top floor, looking almost like a penthouse, is where the Operating Rooms were being located.

 

[Lone Primate]

And here, folks, is an even OLDER view of the same intersection up the top of the hill, from ten years earlier still, before the two plazas (built and torn down in the space of about ten years), before the Naturopathic institute and the subway station.

Sheppard and Old Leslie, 1956, 2010

A view of what was Oriole in 1956 -- the intersection of (Old) Leslie Street and Sheppard Avenue -- and how it looked in 2010. I'm rather proud of my shot because it was a bit of an effort to achieve; climbing through thorn trees to perch on a frozen 30' drop to shoot. Also, the 1956 shot is actually two shots by Ted Chirnside. Back then, he had no facility to mate them, but in 2010, I did: the University of British Columbia's excellent utility AutoStitch, which also wedded three of my own shots to make the current view. In 2010, Old Leslie doesn't just meet Sheppard and stop, it crosses on a bridge to service light industry on the north side of Sheppard, which now burrows down under Old Leslie and railroad tracks to the current "real" intersection with Leslie Street, which eliminates the dogleg from back then. In the 2010 shot, you can see Leslie Station, part of the Sheppard subway line that opened back in the middle of the decade. It stands where the Oriole Methodist/United Church once stood.

 

[Goldie]

Only "old folks" will recall the Arrow fiasco.
Here, some Avro Arrows await destruction:

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"Only "old folks" will recall the Arrow fiasco."
QUOTE Prof Goldie.


You leave us Old Folks alone, you young Whippersnapper!


Regards,
J T

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"Here, some Avro Arrows await destruction"
QUOTE Prof Goldie.


As shown between the RR track and Rexdale Blvd, was the plant of Orenda Engines with the Test Cells to the rear.


Regards,
J T

 

[Goldie]

"Here, some Avro Arrows await destruction"
QUOTE Prof Goldie.


As shown between the RR track and Rexdale Blvd, was the plant of Orenda Engines with the Test Cells to the rear.
Regards,
J T

I know an "old-timer" who's job it was to X-ray the turbine blades for Orenda engines.

He wishes he'd kept one of those X-ray films.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"He wishes he'd kept one of those X-ray films."
QUOTE Prof Goldie.


But then there was the OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT that we all had to sign.


Regards,
J T

 

[FAC33]

Only "old folks" will recall the Arrow fiasco.
Here, some Avro Arrows await destruction:

If they're the five planes up close to the building, that's the whole lot of them, I believe.

And it's not only the oldsters who remember the Arrow. My father-in-law worked on the Arrow. He was one of the few who stayed in Canada after its cancellation, going on to work for Orenda. Most of the others were hired by either Boeing or NASA.

 

[Lone Primate]

If they're the five planes up close to the building, that's the whole lot of them, I believe.

And it's not only the oldsters who remember the Arrow. My father-in-law worked on the Arrow. He was one of the few who stayed in Canada after its cancellation, going on to work for Orenda. Most of the others were hired by either Boeing or NASA.

Y'know... Dief gave us the Canadian Bill of Rights, recognized the right of Natives on reservations to vote, took a stand against nukes on Canadian soil, opposed the notion of "hyphenated" Canadianism, gave the country is first female federal cabinet minister... but I don't think we're ever really going to forgive him for the Avro Arrow. Even those of us who weren't alive at the time.

 

[BeeRich]

Y'know... Dief gave us the Canadian Bill of Rights, recognized the right of Natives on reservations to vote, took a stand against nukes on Canadian soil, opposed the notion of "hyphenated" Canadianism, gave the country is first female federal cabinet minister... but I don't think we're ever really going to forgive him for the Avro Arrow. Even those of us who weren't alive at the time.

Apparently the book sets the record straight, and it wasn't as simple as a matter of pride. It was apparently 40 years ahead of its time, so I'm sure there was a reasonable position to terminate the project. To be honest I don't know if I would want Canada known for producing a killing machine that advanced. We'd be in a very different Canada today.

 

[Lone Primate]

Apparently the book sets the record straight, and it wasn't as simple as a matter of pride. It was apparently 40 years ahead of its time, so I'm sure there was a reasonable position to terminate the project. To be honest I don't know if I would want Canada known for producing a killing machine that advanced. We'd be in a very different Canada today.

It wasn't "40 years ahead of its time". Forty years after the thing was cancelled the US was flying stealth fighters, for God's sake. I wish people wouldn't talk the thing up into something it wasn't. It was of its time. There were delta wing fighters by then. There were supersonic fighters by then. The Iroquois engine that would have gone into it was cutting edge and powerful, that's true. The Arrow would probably have seen us nicely into the early 80s, instead of the Starfighter. But it wasn't the starship Enterprise or something.

What it was, what made it so special, was that it was OURS. Canada was building its own first-rate fighter plane, here, in Canada, and one that would have been the peer of pretty much anything in the world in the early 1960s. That meant a lot to the country. Pride. Jobs. Export opportunities. And all those hopes and all that pride dried up and blew away when the feds pulled the funding for the project. It literally gutted what little military aviation industry there was in this country, and gave Canadian pride a wound that still really hasn't healed. Canadians who weren't even born yet can feel that pain today. That's what made the Arrow so special... then, and now.

 

[BeeRich]

It wasn't "40 years more advanced". Forty years after the thing was cancelled the US was flying stealth fighters, for God's sake. I wish people wouldn't talk the thing up into something it wasn't. There were delta wing fighters by then. There were supersonic fighters by then. The Iroquois engine that would have gone into it was cutting edge and powerful, that's true. The Arrow would probably have seen us nicely into the early 80s, instead of the Starfighter. But it wasn't the starship Enterprise or something.

What it was, what made it so special, was that it was OURS. Canada was building its own first-rate fighter plane, here, in Canada, and one that would have been the peer of pretty much anything in the world in the early 1960s. That meant a lot to the country. Pride. Jobs. Export opportunities. And all those hopes and all that pride dried up and blew away when the feds pulled the funding for the project. It literally gutted what little military aviation industry there was in this country, and gave Canadian pride a wound that still really hasn't healed. Canadians who weren't even born yet can feel that pain today. That's what made the Arrow so special... then, and now.

So what you are saying is that it was a plane with no advantages? That makes no sense. It being "Ours" would have been the problem, stretching into today. If what you say is true, which I don't believe for a minute, then it would only put us on the map as an aggressor. Bombardier is comparable and look at the federal subsidies it has to get in order to compete with Brazil. Both crooked instances in order to save pride. Canada's military pride is in international peacekeeping, not blowing countries up.

The Avro's potential was that it was indeed a great plane, not that it made Canada a second rate USA.

 

[Lone Primate]

So what you are saying is that it was a plane with no advantages?

Look, I don't want to get into this big, long argument about it. I didn't say it had no advantages. I'm not dumping on it. I'm saying, put it in perspective. For fifty years the legend of the Avro Arrow has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger with every retelling. It would have a good multi-role fighter that probably could have looked forward to same decent sales among our allies with similar climates and needs in a fighter plane, if we'd been able to complete the project. All that's fair to say.

You're perfectly within your rights to mop your brow with relief that Canada didn't become an exporter of fighter planes in the 60s, if that's where your priorities lie. On the other hand, Canada needed, and needs, a credible air defence no matter what, and even if we'd never sold a single one outside the country, the Arrow would have provided us with a domestic solution to that problem, and kept the money, the jobs, and an aviation industry that could have produced more than just the Arrow here through those years. Instead, we bought the F-104, and the DC-9, and 707. And it's just as fair for the rest of us to lament what we feel we lost, even if you don't.

 

[BeeRich]

Look, I don't want to get into this big, long argument about it. I didn't say it had no advantages. I'm not dumping on it. I'm saying, put it in perspective. For fifty years the legend of the Avro Arrow has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger with every retelling. It would have a good multi-role fighter that probably could have looked forward to same decent sales among our allies with similar climates and needs in a fighter plane, if we'd been able to complete the project. All that's fair to say.

You're perfectly within your rights to mop your brow with relief that Canada didn't become an exporter of fighter planes in the 60s, if that's where your priorities lie. On the other hand, Canada needed, and needs, a credible air defence no matter what, and even if we'd never sold a single one outside the country, the Arrow would have provided us with a domestic solution to that problem, and kept the money, the jobs, and an aviation industry that could have produced more than just the Arrow here through those years. Instead, we bought the F-104, and the DC-9, and 707. And it's just as fair for the rest of us to lament what we feel we lost, even if you don't.

Yay for money. I think we've been invited into more international business transactions as a peaceful nation, than selling anything quick we can come up with. The Oilsands are a fine example. Potash is another example. If we were so friction proud, we would find a way of managing our resources instead of selling them raw. But we don't, because the concept of Canadian pride is purely laughable. Our aviation industry wasn't stopped in its tracks because of a single airplane.

 

[Lone Primate]

If we were so friction proud, we would find a way of managing our resources instead of selling them raw.

What, like building airplanes, maybe...? You're arguing out of both sides of your face here.