Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[JayBeeGooner]

You're right. When the streetcars ran on Mt. Pleasant, they had to use 4 streetcars during the day. In addition, the streetcars ran 24 hours a day. When the buses replaced the streetcars on Mt. Pleasant, they made do with 1 bus during the day, and no buses at all after 7 PM.

...wait a minute...

I think you blew his mind.

 

[JasonParis]

Replacing streetcars with buses would mean a decline for the city in most ways conceivable: traffic, transit capa city, air quality and culture. People are less inclined to take buses over streetcars.

Yup, it would be head-scratchingly stupid and would be regretted almost instantly.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yup, it would be head-scratchingly stupid and would be regretted almost instantly.

I can't possibly understand why anyone would want to get rid of streetcars. It benefits nobody (including drivers).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yup, it would be head-scratchingly stupid and would be regretted almost instantly.

We should just try it for a week so that he can shut up about it forever.

AoD

 

[BMO]

Honestly, why doesn't the TTC just put more island stops on their routes downtown and skip the non-island stops during rush-hour. This would essentially make downtown streetcar lines LRT's since the island stops adds a bit more of a separation and the lane is a commuter lane. All this for quite a lower cost than many of the alternatives. Am I crazy or wouldn't this be feasible?

It's a win-win for everyone. Drivers don't have to stop when the streetcar is letting people on and off and streetcar passengers are safer as well. Overall everyone moves more smoothly.

 

[ShonTron]

Honestly, why doesn't the TTC just put more island stops on their routes downtown and skip the non-island stops during rush-hour. This would essentially make downtown streetcar lines LRT's since the island stops adds a bit more of a separation and the lane is a commuter lane. All this for quite a lower cost than many of the alternatives. Am I crazy or wouldn't this be feasible?

It's a win-win for everyone. Drivers don't have to stop when the streetcar is letting people on and off and streetcar passengers are safer as well. Overall everyone moves more smoothly.

Not necessarily a win-win. To fit more islands, we'd have to narrow sidewalks.

Island streetcar stops are only useful with rights of way (St. Clair, Spadina, Queen's Quay) and wide streets (like College between Bathurst and Spadina or Bathurst south of Queen) where they can fit. Passengers still have to get to and from the curb, you just changed the right of way to favour cars. The TTC's rebuilt and new islands are fenced in such a way that forces riders out at the front.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

HOW MUCH WOULD REPLACING STREETCARS WITH BUSES COST?

Read More: http://coderedto.com/how-much-would-replacing-streetcars-with-buses-cost/

.....

Little attention is paid to the many residents on that streetcar who also wish to travel somewhere and have just as much right to do so. It’s key that improvements help people travel more efficiently, not that cars necessarily travel more efficiently, as the average car in Toronto carries just 1.1 people, according to a previous Chair of the TTC. This means that old rusty streetcar could be carrying nearly 120 cars worth of traffic!

- King and Queen combined carry over 100,000 riders per day – more than double the Sheppard subway, and more than the entire GO Transit bus network combined. Any change needs to take into account how those thousands of riders will get where they’re going. --- We calculated that to replace the King and Queen streetcars would require a purchase of up to 185 articulated buses just to maintain the capacity the TTC has scheduled, not provide any increase. That would mean a capital cost of $174M to purchase the articulated buses, and additional driver salaries of up to $8.2M per year – a significant outlay for a transit system that for several years has ‘robbed Peter to pay Paul’ in its operating budget, and and is facing a multi-billion-dollar shortage of capital funding in just the next 10 years.

- Other costs would be required as well: fuel for these vehicles versus electricity costs for the streetcars, a new garage to store these vehicles, new maintenance and cleaning staff to keep the buses running, and more. Never mind the cost to cancel or redirect the current $1.2B contract for 204 new accessible low-floor streetcars, which the TTC is hoping to expand by 60 more to help upgrade capacity across the network. --- Even should the costs concerns be waved away, buses would encounter many of the same challenges as streetcars in the crowded and busy King and Queen corridors: blocked lanes due to left turns, parking, taxis, and delivery trucks; bunching due to route management issues or disruptions; blocking other traffic by leaving their “tail†sticking into the left lane as they weave around parked cars, etc. These issues can and should be addressed regardless of the type of vehicle being used on a specific street.

.....

Why would you replace an over crowded streetcar line with a lower capacity bus? Isn't the next logical step to upgrade to subway?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Honestly, why doesn't the TTC just put more island stops on their routes downtown and skip the non-island stops during rush-hour. This would essentially make downtown streetcar lines LRT's since the island stops adds a bit more of a separation and the lane is a commuter lane. All this for quite a lower cost than many of the alternatives. Am I crazy or wouldn't this be feasible?

It's a win-win for everyone. Drivers don't have to stop when the streetcar is letting people on and off and streetcar passengers are safer as well. Overall everyone moves more smoothly.

No it wouldn't make it LRT. LRTs require a dedicated lane so it won't be running in mixed traffic.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That's the case being made. Almost seems worthwhile to replace the Dufferin and Jane busses with mixed traffic streetcars and provide a greater benefit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The TTC doesnt seem too fond of building any more mixed traffic streetcars. Jane would probably be LRT.

 

[BMO]

Not necessarily a win-win. To fit more islands, we'd have to narrow sidewalks.

Island streetcar stops are only useful with rights of way (St. Clair, Spadina, Queen's Quay) and wide streets (like College between Bathurst and Spadina or Bathurst south of Queen) where they can fit. Passengers still have to get to and from the curb, you just changed the right of way to favour cars. The TTC's rebuilt and new islands are fenced in such a way that forces riders out at the front.

Fair enough, in Amsterdam they have island stops even on lines that aren't separated, and it seemed to work well for everyone, and it is anything but wide. It's not simply favouring cars, there's many public and commercial services that would benefit from better private vehicle movement downtown, whether it be delivery trucks, or city of Toronto maintenance/ repair workers, it's about improving the flow of all traffic. Whether you reduce the sidewalk, that space is already being taken up by people waiting for the streetcar, thus not actually available for pedestrians to use (. And during off-peak hours I imagine the need for a larger sidewalk is diminished (Keep in mind the roadway is only expanded at select spots affecting the sidewalk). Maybe they won't fit, I was talking about single islands not double islands like we see on Spadina, and I was thinking of putting them at intersections as opposed to mid-block sections, but ultimately there's only enough space in the ROW to be shared amongst, cars, transit and pedestrians, as well as cyclists.

 

[ehlow]

Why would you replace an over crowded streetcar line with a lower capacity bus? Isn't the next logical step to upgrade to subway?

I agree that the only possibility of replacing the streetcars is a subway or underground/elevated LRT with reasonable stop-spacing (not too far, maybe about the same as the Bloor-Danforth line). Of course, this won't happen anytime soon, but it could be fun to think about.

It's possible that the DRL won't necessarily fulfill this role, it may just end near Spadina for example.

However, shutting down Queen or King for 10 years of construction seems terrible, and where would the huge amount of people who take either streetcar line go while construction happens? That's if it is even possible to construct a line. I guess it should go Wellington or Richmond/Adelaide like the DRL proposals would.

Has anybody looked into how some sort of grade-separated transit line would look along King/Queen, stretching further than the DRL proposals?

 

[Solid Snake]

The TTC doesnt seem too fond of building any more mixed traffic streetcars. Jane would probably be LRT.

You're right, I'm pretty sure that the TTC said they wouldn't build streetcar lines in mixed traffic. So far, they kept their words with the Cherry Streetcar lines

 

[BMO]

No it wouldn't make it LRT. LRTs require a dedicated lane so it won't be running in mixed traffic.

this is absolutely false. LRT is usually a grade B level of separation. A simple commuter lane would in effect adhere to that and given the right vehicles it would allow for sidewalk boarding. And LRT is just a mode of transportation not a method of implementation. You can have a Light rail transit line that is slow (like spadina) and you can also have a completely grade separated LRT line (Like LA). You could have a GO train running on a track downtown and that would be HRT, for heavy rail transit, regardless of its implementation.

 

[ehlow]

Not necessarily a win-win. To fit more islands, we'd have to narrow sidewalks.

Island streetcar stops are only useful with rights of way (St. Clair, Spadina, Queen's Quay) and wide streets (like College between Bathurst and Spadina or Bathurst south of Queen) where they can fit. Passengers still have to get to and from the curb, you just changed the right of way to favour cars. The TTC's rebuilt and new islands are fenced in such a way that forces riders out at the front.

Narrowing the sidewalk in a few places seems like it might be worth it. When I use these island stops, I like the fact that I don't need to be worried about a car or bike zipping by while boarding the vehicle.