Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[innsertnamehere]

I know its not a streetcar, but it acts as a downtown circulator. it also only runs in one direction (heh), so I don't know how successful you expect it to be.

 

[M II A II R II K]

HOW MUCH WOULD REPLACING STREETCARS WITH BUSES COST?

Read More: http://coderedto.com/how-much-would-replacing-streetcars-with-buses-cost/

.....

Little attention is paid to the many residents on that streetcar who also wish to travel somewhere and have just as much right to do so. It’s key that improvements help people travel more efficiently, not that cars necessarily travel more efficiently, as the average car in Toronto carries just 1.1 people, according to a previous Chair of the TTC. This means that old rusty streetcar could be carrying nearly 120 cars worth of traffic!

- King and Queen combined carry over 100,000 riders per day – more than double the Sheppard subway, and more than the entire GO Transit bus network combined. Any change needs to take into account how those thousands of riders will get where they’re going. --- We calculated that to replace the King and Queen streetcars would require a purchase of up to 185 articulated buses just to maintain the capacity the TTC has scheduled, not provide any increase. That would mean a capital cost of $174M to purchase the articulated buses, and additional driver salaries of up to $8.2M per year – a significant outlay for a transit system that for several years has ‘robbed Peter to pay Paul’ in its operating budget, and and is facing a multi-billion-dollar shortage of capital funding in just the next 10 years.

- Other costs would be required as well: fuel for these vehicles versus electricity costs for the streetcars, a new garage to store these vehicles, new maintenance and cleaning staff to keep the buses running, and more. Never mind the cost to cancel or redirect the current $1.2B contract for 204 new accessible low-floor streetcars, which the TTC is hoping to expand by 60 more to help upgrade capacity across the network. --- Even should the costs concerns be waved away, buses would encounter many of the same challenges as streetcars in the crowded and busy King and Queen corridors: blocked lanes due to left turns, parking, taxis, and delivery trucks; bunching due to route management issues or disruptions; blocking other traffic by leaving their “tail†sticking into the left lane as they weave around parked cars, etc. These issues can and should be addressed regardless of the type of vehicle being used on a specific street.

.....

 

[CDL.TO]

According to the Atlanta Streetcar website, the projected ridership for their new streetcar is 2,600 passengers a day. This is about the same as the ridership on the 126 Christie bus. In comparison, the 501 carries around 43,500 a day.

 

[drum118]

HOW MUCH WOULD REPLACING STREETCARS WITH BUSES COST?

Read More: http://coderedto.com/how-much-would-replacing-streetcars-with-buses-cost/

.....

Little attention is paid to the many residents on that streetcar who also wish to travel somewhere and have just as much right to do so. It’s key that improvements help people travel more efficiently, not that cars necessarily travel more efficiently, as the average car in Toronto carries just 1.1 people, according to a previous Chair of the TTC. This means that old rusty streetcar could be carrying nearly 120 cars worth of traffic!

- King and Queen combined carry over 100,000 riders per day – more than double the Sheppard subway, and more than the entire GO Transit bus network combined. Any change needs to take into account how those thousands of riders will get where they’re going. --- We calculated that to replace the King and Queen streetcars would require a purchase of up to 185 articulated buses just to maintain the capacity the TTC has scheduled, not provide any increase. That would mean a capital cost of $174M to purchase the articulated buses, and additional driver salaries of up to $8.2M per year – a significant outlay for a transit system that for several years has ‘robbed Peter to pay Paul’ in its operating budget, and and is facing a multi-billion-dollar shortage of capital funding in just the next 10 years.

- Other costs would be required as well: fuel for these vehicles versus electricity costs for the streetcars, a new garage to store these vehicles, new maintenance and cleaning staff to keep the buses running, and more. Never mind the cost to cancel or redirect the current $1.2B contract for 204 new accessible low-floor streetcars, which the TTC is hoping to expand by 60 more to help upgrade capacity across the network. --- Even should the costs concerns be waved away, buses would encounter many of the same challenges as streetcars in the crowded and busy King and Queen corridors: blocked lanes due to left turns, parking, taxis, and delivery trucks; bunching due to route management issues or disruptions; blocking other traffic by leaving their “tail†sticking into the left lane as they weave around parked cars, etc. These issues can and should be addressed regardless of the type of vehicle being used on a specific street.

.....

You don't need 185 buses, but 370 to get the same life cycle of a streetcar. At the same time, you need almost 3 times the number of drivers for buses compare to streetcars. Almost the same number to maintain the buses compare to streetcars.

Artic's will slide a lot more and require extra space at stops compare to 40' . Will require extra cost to clear the stops during the winter months.

Code Red TO miss a lot of info here and not doing a good job supporting streetcars.

Fuel and hydro are hard cost to arrived at over a long term based because of unknown issues and what will happen world wide that will effect them down the road.

End of the day, there needs to be a plan as how to fix traffic that will make transit operate more better than today, otherwise it only going to get worse. Where are we going to put the extra 1.2 million car over the next 20 years that heading our way when we can't deal with what we got today.

Buses will never handle ridership on most streetcar routes today let alone 20 years from now.

What will the health care cost look like along with the air quality if these buses were put on the road along with the extra cars coming??

 

[Johnny Au]

According to the Atlanta Streetcar website, the projected ridership for their new streetcar is 2,600 passengers a day. This is about the same as the ridership on the 126 Christie bus. In comparison, the 501 carries around 43,500 a day.

What MARTA station(s) do(es) the streetcar connect to? If it connects with a few stations, then it would bring subway ridership up. The MARTA is overbuilt. Five Points Station's capacity is much greater than Bloor-Yonge station, especially given that Five Points has Spanish solution on both platforms, and yet, Five Points is as busy as an average Toronto subway station.

 

[spider]

HOW MUCH WOULD REPLACING STREETCARS WITH BUSES COST?

Read More: http://coderedto.com/how-much-would-replacing-streetcars-with-buses-cost/

.....

Little attention is paid to the many residents on that streetcar who also wish to travel somewhere and have just as much right to do so. It’s key that improvements help people travel more efficiently, not that cars necessarily travel more efficiently, as the average car in Toronto carries just 1.1 people, according to a previous Chair of the TTC. This means that old rusty streetcar could be carrying nearly 120 cars worth of traffic!

- King and Queen combined carry over 100,000 riders per day – more than double the Sheppard subway, and more than the entire GO Transit bus network combined. Any change needs to take into account how those thousands of riders will get where they’re going. --- We calculated that to replace the King and Queen streetcars would require a purchase of up to 185 articulated buses just to maintain the capacity the TTC has scheduled, not provide any increase. That would mean a capital cost of $174M to purchase the articulated buses, and additional driver salaries of up to $8.2M per year – a significant outlay for a transit system that for several years has ‘robbed Peter to pay Paul’ in its operating budget, and and is facing a multi-billion-dollar shortage of capital funding in just the next 10 years.

- Other costs would be required as well: fuel for these vehicles versus electricity costs for the streetcars, a new garage to store these vehicles, new maintenance and cleaning staff to keep the buses running, and more. Never mind the cost to cancel or redirect the current $1.2B contract for 204 new accessible low-floor streetcars, which the TTC is hoping to expand by 60 more to help upgrade capacity across the network. --- Even should the costs concerns be waved away, buses would encounter many of the same challenges as streetcars in the crowded and busy King and Queen corridors: blocked lanes due to left turns, parking, taxis, and delivery trucks; bunching due to route management issues or disruptions; blocking other traffic by leaving their “tail” sticking into the left lane as they weave around parked cars, etc. These issues can and should be addressed regardless of the type of vehicle being used on a specific street.

.....

Here we go again with the convenient arithmetic.

First, not every car on the road in Peak Periods is a commuter driven vehicle (read potential convert to transit) many of them are taxis or delivery or service trucks.

Second, Streetcars do carry more people per vehicle than a bus but this capacity advantage disappears outside of Peak Periods when a single bus can easily replace one streetcar.

The number of additional drivers in an all bus world would be about 50% more than an all streetcar world but only for 4 hours per week day.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Here we go again with the convenient arithmetic.

First, not every car on the road in Peak Periods is a commuter driven vehicle (read potential convert to transit) many of them are taxis or delivery or service trucks.

Second, Streetcars do carry more people per vehicle than a bus but this capacity advantage disappears outside of Peak Periods when a single bus can easily replace one streetcar.

The number of additional drivers in an all bus world would be about 50% more than an all streetcar world but only for 4 hours per week day.

You're right. When the streetcars ran on Mt. Pleasant, they had to use 4 streetcars during the day. In addition, the streetcars ran 24 hours a day. When the buses replaced the streetcars on Mt. Pleasant, they made do with 1 bus during the day, and no buses at all after 7 PM.

...wait a minute...

 

[junctionist]

Replacing streetcars with buses would mean a decline for the city in most ways conceivable: traffic, transit capacity, air quality and culture. People are less inclined to take buses over streetcars.

 

[doady]

Atlanta's streetcar should have direct connections to the MARTA, as it would provide great synergy between the two; it works in cities that have both streetcars and subways, such as Los Angeles, Toronto, and Boston, as well as Baltimore to some degree. Arlington, VA should have its streetcars connect directly to the DC Metro.

Rob Ford should really look at Atlanta, a city known for its sprawl (and a subway system) and is strongly interested in LRTs rather than extending the MARTA.

Seriously? I don't think Atlanta should be model for city when it comes to transit. MARTA serves the entire metropolitan area and it still only manages 1/8 the ridership of TTC. If Toronto aspires to be another Atlanta, that is sad.

 

[doady]

Bus boardings per weekday, 2012:

MiWay: 183.0k
MARTA: 187.5k

The entire metropolitan area of Atlanta barely has higher total bus ridership than Mississauga, let alone Mississauga plus Toronto, Brampton, GO, etc. Toronto and Atlanta have nothing in common, seriously.

 

[spider]

You're right. When the streetcars ran on Mt. Pleasant, they had to use 4 streetcars during the day. In addition, the streetcars ran 24 hours a day. When the buses replaced the streetcars on Mt. Pleasant, they made do with 1 bus during the day, and no buses at all after 7 PM.

...wait a minute...

Holy non sequitur? (sp)

 

[Johnny Au]

Bus boardings per weekday, 2012:

MiWay: 183.0k
MARTA: 187.5k

The entire metropolitan area of Atlanta barely has higher total bus ridership than Mississauga, let alone Mississauga plus Toronto, Brampton, GO, etc. Toronto and Atlanta have nothing in common, seriously.

That is proof the MARTA is overbuilt. Atlanta needs more density for it to make its streetcar (and its subway system) effective.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Atlanta probably has the most overbuilt system in NA really, it has a large system that essentially nobody uses.

 

[nfitz]

First, not every car on the road in Peak Periods is a commuter driven vehicle (read potential convert to transit) many of them are taxis or delivery or service trucks.

Downtown perhaps, because so many commuters aren't in cars in the first place. But when I used to drive up Don Mills Road in rush hour, I rarely saw a taxi, and didn't see too many service vehicles. It was almost all commuters - and normally one per car.

 

[Rainforest]

Second, Streetcars do carry more people per vehicle than a bus but this capacity advantage disappears outside of Peak Periods when a single bus can easily replace one streetcar.

The number of additional drivers in an all bus world would be about 50% more than an all streetcar world but only for 4 hours per week day.

That would be at least 6 hours per day, not 4 (7 to 10 in the morning, and 4.30 to 7.30 in the evening).

Furthermore, the 150% (3:2) replacement ratio is only possible if artic buses are used. Artic buses will be routinely blocking both lanes as they cannot fully pull to the stop due to parked cars and other obstacles, and thus impeding traffic almost as much as streetcars.

If regular buses are used, then the replacement ratio will be more like 3:1, and the mere number of buses can impede traffic.