Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[crs1026]

I would add that transfers, often multiple, are also a fact of life for TTC riders.

Well, they are, unless they are coming from Richmond Hill, or Vaughan, or Cloverdale, or even Mississauga City Center. We have no problem contemplating subway extensions to any of these.

In my view this is the weakest argument against the subway extension. We do it everywhere else. I question whether a long line is operationally desirable, there must be a finite length beyond which there are too many issues with trains bunching and turnbacks and impact of delays. I don't know what that length is, but extending Line 2 in Scarboro is pretty innocuous in that respect.

When you look at a map, the penetration of our subway network into Scarborough is glaringly modest. The question is not whether to correct that, it's how to do it without spending the moon and the stars, and how to do it so it delivers the maximum benefit. That's why I keep asking about cut and cover, and including the Lawrence stop (at least).

- Paul

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

This kind of "argument" is another example of what the problem is with this thread. Another one-thread poster throws another accusation grenade in and let the posts fly.

You continue to keep the thread open so you should not be surprised that certain posts continue to appear. Shut it down for a week

 

[kEiThZ]

The thread is indeed pointless, when most here aren't interested in discussion or opposing viewpoints.

In any event, if the Conservatives win the next election, this entire debate will be moot. The SSE maybe the only subway that gets built. All because the LRT advocates couldn't figure out a way to make LRT more palatable.....a consequence of simply being uninterested in the concerns of actual transit users in that area. But hey, they'll have their moral victory right?

 

[Tulse]

The LRT would have had more stops and served far more local riders, which would seem to be addressing the concerns of actual transit users in that area.

 

[Sakraycore]

The LRT would have had more stops and served far more local riders, which would seem to be addressing the concerns of actual transit users in that area.

Buses could have even more stops and serve even more local riders, let's have buses instead?

 

[Voltz]

The thread is indeed pointless, when most here aren't interested in discussion or opposing viewpoints.

In any event, if the Conservatives win the next election, this entire debate will be moot. The SSE maybe the only subway that gets built. All because the LRT advocates couldn't figure out a way to make LRT more palatable.....a consequence of simply being uninterested in the concerns of actual transit users in that area. But hey, they'll have their moral victory right?

I really don't think that having one more stop at the Malvern Town Centre would have tipped support in favour of the LRT, They were proposing the Eglinton East LRT in addition to the SLRT and that didn't do anything.

 

[Tulse]

Buses could have even more stops and serve even more local riders, let's have buses instead?

Buses don't have the same capacity as LRT, and would be slower.

 

[kEiThZ]

I really don't think that having one more stop at the Malvern Town Centre would have tipped support in favour of the LRT, They were proposing the Eglinton East LRT in addition to the SLRT and that didn't do anything.

I have argued that the Malvern stop in addition to a firm start on the Eglinton East would have galvanized LRT support across Scarborough, hitting every part of the borough.

Until Tory got elected, Eglinton East was a vague promise and the SLRT still doesn't go into Malvern proper. So why would eastern Scarborough care? They aren't getting anything, either way (subway or LRT).

 

[Sakraycore]

Buses don't have the same capacity as LRT, and would be slower.

The capacity isn't needed beyond STC anyways...so you would be wasting "capacity" even with the LRT.

STC could use the subway station though.

 

[Voltz]

I have argued that the Malvern stop in addition to a firm start on the Eglinton East would have galvanized LRT support across Scarborough, hitting every part of the borough.

Until Tory got elected, Eglinton East was a vague promise and the SLRT still doesn't go into Malvern proper. So why would eastern Scarborough care? They aren't getting anything, either way (subway or LRT).

How would that have happened? How would have just one more stop on the LRT galvanised support for that plan, the support for the subway was already irrational to begin with, even without the stop in Malvern many people who would have been better off with LRT were inexplicably pro-subway.

 

[syn]

Doubling down, I see.

So you completely ignored what I said about the flaws of the LRT plan. Keep at it. I'm out. You don't seem interested in making LRT palatable. You only seem interested in browbeating Scarborough voters in accepting the current LRT plan. Have at it.

I'll be glad when this debate is settled after the next election.

Kind of like you completely ignore things like ridership, density, cost ratios, etc.?

You're the one suggesting Scarborough residents can't see past identity politics...and that's why things are the way they are. An LRT to Malvern won't make a lick of difference because it's no longer about which plan is actually better. Every LRT plan is better than the one stop extension, but that doesn't matter anymore.

It's now about people 'getting what they deserve'. It's about subways being inherently better than LRTs or an upgraded RT, regardless of cost, ridership numbers, or any other rational factors.

Unfortunately we have leaders too concerned about getting votes, rather than building infrastructure that benefits the most people at the least cost. That's what transit planning should really be about.

 

[Hopkins123]

I really don't think that having one more stop at the Malvern Town Centre would have tipped support in favour of the LRT, They were proposing the Eglinton East LRT in addition to the SLRT and that didn't do anything.

Since the LRT plan was to be grade-separated all the way to Malvern Town Centre, how much difference would a subway doing the exact same thing be in the long run?

If we can get past the perceived savings of the LRT plan knowing that an LRT using the McCowan route would have costed more than SLRT, and that the Stoufville GO corridor AD2W expansion would have absorbed the land currently occupied by the SRT - one naturally can come to the conclusion that SSE is the best option at the end of the day.

If you want to make the subway extension a better deal for Scarborough and regional transit expansion, you simply add more stations. Ensure that Lawrence East is included from the initial build and cut down the commute times from east Scarborough by adding the station at Brimley-Eglinton. And really push for a second phase expansion to Morningside Heights, which I'd prioritize even above the Crosstown East expansion to UTSC.

This frenetic desire to build the cheapest rapid transit money can buy is costing people in Scarborough (in the north and east especially) their ability to live they live and still be able to get around the city comfortably.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hopkins is right here. Most people would have supported a full subway to Malvern. Checks off all the boxes.

 

[Voltz]

Hopkins is right here. Most people would have supported a full subway to Malvern. Checks off all the boxes.

Other than the box of ever standing a chance of happening, or the fiscally responsibility box, or the leaves room in the budget for anything else to be built in Scarborough in the next half century box.

 

[Voltz]

Since the LRT plan was to be grade-separated all the way to Malvern Town Centre, how much difference would a subway doing the exact same thing be in the long run?

If we can get past the perceived savings of the LRT plan knowing that an LRT using the McCowan route would have costed more than SLRT, and that the Stoufville GO corridor AD2W expansion would have absorbed the land currently occupied by the SRT - one naturally can come to the conclusion that SSE is the best option at the end of the day.

If you want to make the subway extension a better deal for Scarborough and regional transit expansion, you simply add more stations. Ensure that Lawrence East is included from the initial build and cut down the commute times from east Scarborough by adding the station at Brimley-Eglinton. And really push for a second phase expansion to Morningside Heights, which I'd prioritize even above the Crosstown East expansion to UTSC.

This frenetic desire to build the cheapest rapid transit money can buy is costing people in Scarborough (in the north and east especially) their ability to live they live and still be able to get around the city comfortably.

Your whole rational for a Subway here seems to be that there is not enough room in the SRT corridor for another GO train track, I would say there is, and just how is wanting LRT stopping transit from being built to north and east Scarborough? LRT would have built transit there, and this Subway has stopped it.