Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

To touch on the map I produced a few pages back, it would definitely be possible to elevate the Bloor-Danforth subway beyond Scarborough Centre and include a station at Bellamy/Corporate:

The subway barely has a case for Scarborough. There's no way it has a case for anything but a northerly extension to McCowan after that. Malvern is out of the question. Even if it's Cho's fantasy.

I actually think a lot of curbside bus lanes (BRT-lite) feeding STC would do well. And eventually when they build the Sheppard East LRT, they can do a spur up Neilson or the Progress Hydro Corridor to Malvern.

 

[TOareaFan]

Easy to skew a poll in your favour if promising seven of something instead of one. Of course, five of the seven stops already exist... so really it's only a net gain of two new stops and still involves transferring trains at Kennedy as opposed to a through-service, but I digress.

If you describe the LRT as a net new 2 stops.....how often do you describe the subway as a net Zero stop extension? (Note it is actually a net sub zero by your math but that would be hard to say in a sentence).

 

[syn]

Flawed poll, the question formulated in a way that nudges the respondents towards the LRT plan.

In addition to asking which transit project was best for Scarborough, the poll asked whether respondents approved of each option. The LRT scored higher than the subway in approval both in Scarborough (54 per cent) and the rest of Toronto (60 per cent).

A minority, or 40 per cent, of Scarborough voters said they approved of the subway extension, while 50 per cent disapproved. In the rest of Toronto only 28 per cent approved of the single stop underground project, while 60 per cent disapproved.

The description used in the poll said the subway extension “will travel from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre, will have one stop, and will cost more than $3 billion.”

The poll said the LRT “would travel along the route of the Scarborough RT to Markham and Sheppard, would have seven stops and was originally estimated to cost about $1.8 billion.”

Seems quite accurate - there's no updated LRT cost, but the subway cost isn't updated either. It's going to be at or near $5 billion when it's all said and done, not $3 billion.

 

[syn]

Are you referring to the Malvern stop that McGuinty cut which removed the chief benefit of a centralized stop which really cut bus rides in the community or are you referring to the Eglinton East line (former Scarborough-Malvern LRT) which was only hypothetical in even the medium term until Tory pushed it as part of his compromise plan?

Scarborough councilors have had plenty of time since then to present a revised plan that included Malvern. Motions by councilors like Josh Maltow to redirect funding (which could've allowed for an end point at Malvern) were denied.

Why is De Baeremaeker spreading outright lies instead of fighting for a plan that benefits the greatest number of residents in Scarborough?

Ignored in all of this is that an LRT can eventually be extended to reach Malvern, even if it isn't included in the current phase. That's a very realistic possibility.

This one stop waste will never have stations added to the route, and it's probably never going to be extended in anyone's current lifetime either.

But again, none of this matters - it's all about identity politics.

 

[kEiThZ]

Ignored in all of this is that an LRT can eventually be extended to reach Malvern, even if it isn't included in the current phase. That's a very realistic possibility.

Bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They've talked about extending the SRT to Malvern since the 90s. Why trust them now?

And from that perspective, the subway extension is understandable. It's a guaranteed removal of a transfer. Why would anybody in the northeast trade that for a hypothetical (not even a guarantee) promise of a future extension, especially given how past promises panned out?

But again, none of this matters - it's all about identity politics.

And it didn't have to come to that, if these issues were thought about a long time ago. Scarborough and the right aren't the only one susceptible to this. Let's not forget that Jack Layton campaigned against the DRL in the 80s because he didn't want development concentrated downtown.

 

[Hopkins123]

If you describe the LRT as a net new 2 stops.....how often do you describe the subway as a net Zero stop extension? (Note it is actually a net sub zero by your math but that would be hard to say in a sentence).

Yes, but you're presuming the Lawrence East station won't be added back in. If Lawrence and Scarborough Centre are a part of the subway plan, it's only a net loss of three stations (Midland, Centennial and Sheppard East).

Ellesmere would be lost in both plans and McCowan and Scarborough Centre are merged. Plus, you never know, a Brimley-Eglinton station could go on the books too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, but you're presuming the Lawrence East station won't be added back in. If Lawrence and Scarborough Centre are a part of the subway plan, it's only a net loss of three stations (Midland, Centennial and Sheppard East).

Ellesmere would be lost in both plans and McCowan and Scarborough Centre are merged. Plus, you never know, a Brimley-Eglinton station could go on the books too.

I can do the math....but I was just pointing out how biased the comments are (on both sides) in this subway v LRT debate......I presume you support subway? and are willing to describe the 7 stop LRT as only net "2 new stations"....then you should be willing to describe the subway (even with Lawrence added back in...no sure thing) as a net "loss of 3 stations"....no?

 

[kEiThZ]

I get that LRT advocates want a point to beat the other side on the head with. But the number of stations thing is so pointless in reality though. And this reality is why so few people in Scarborough are worked up about losing stations.

Seriously, how much walk in traffic does McCowan and Midland stations get? McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere are all reliever stations for SC and are mostly fed by bus routes terminating at SC. The only real loss that is impactful here is Lawrence East. And I'd argue the new Sheppard/Progress stop but since it doesn't exist today, nobody is really fretting about it.

Lawrence East is also the reason you're seeing support for the LRT. People who use that stop care. The rest? Well, not much difference between transferring at an LRT or a subway stop 2 mins down the road.

 

[TOareaFan]

I get that LRT advocates want a point to beat the other side on the head with. But the number of stations thing is so pointless in reality though. And this reality is why so few people in Scarborough are worked up about losing stations.

Seriously, how much walk in traffic does McCowan and Midland stations get? McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere are all reliever stations for SC and are mostly fed by bus routes terminating at SC. The only real loss that is impactful here is Lawrence East. And I'd argue the new Sheppard/Progress stop but since it doesn't exist today, nobody is really fretting about it.

Lawrence East is also the reason you're seeing support for the LRT. People who use that stop care. The rest? Well, not much difference between transferring at an LRT or a subway stop 2 mins down the road.

to be clear:

1) i am not an LRT advocate....just a casual observer of this thread really
2) and I was not beating someone on the head with number of stations.

I was (as someone who is as close to neutral on this as you'll find) just suggesting that the language on both sides of this debate has gotten very biased....and the example I used was someone using language describing the 7 stop LRT as only being a net new 2 stop extension...when they would never describe the the subway as a net -3 (0r -4) extension....heck there were a couple of weeks when people were criticizing that biased media outlet for continually calling it a 1 station extension.

 

[Rainforest]

In addition to asking which transit project was best for Scarborough, the poll asked whether respondents approved of each option. The LRT scored higher than the subway in approval both in Scarborough (54 per cent) and the rest of Toronto (60 per cent).

A minority, or 40 per cent, of Scarborough voters said they approved of the subway extension, while 50 per cent disapproved. In the rest of Toronto only 28 per cent approved of the single stop underground project, while 60 per cent disapproved.

The description used in the poll said the subway extension “will travel from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre, will have one stop, and will cost more than $3 billion.”

The poll said the LRT “would travel along the route of the Scarborough RT to Markham and Sheppard, would have seven stops and was originally estimated to cost about $1.8 billion.”

Seems quite accurate - there's no updated LRT cost, but the subway cost isn't updated either. It's going to be at or near $5 billion when it's all said and done, not $3 billion.

I called it "flawed" because of the way the question was formulated. Not because of the cost estimates.

They emphasised the advantages of the LRT option in their statement ( seven stops and lover cost), and did not mention any of the subway advantages. Surely, many of the respondents did not pay match attention to the Scarborough transit debate at all. When they hear "seven stops", they say "yeah, that's better".

An unbiased formulation would be like "either the subway extension that will eliminate one transfer between STC and downtown, but will have only one stop and will cost more", "or, LRT that will have seven stops and will cost less, but retain the extra transfer at Kennedy".

 

[syn]

I called it "flawed" because of the way the question was formulated. Not because of the cost estimates.

They emphasised the advantages of the LRT option in their statement ( seven stops and lover cost), and did not mention any of the subway advantages. Surely, many of the respondents did not pay match attention to the Scarborough transit debate at all. When they hear "seven stops", they say "yeah, that's better".

An unbiased formulation would be like "either the subway extension that will eliminate one transfer between STC and downtown, but will have only one stop and will cost more", "or, LRT that will have seven stops and will cost less, but retain the extra transfer at Kennedy".

Subway extension means that it's a direct continuation of the Bloor-Danforth line by definition.

It's like suggesting the poll is biased because they didn't say the subway would use subway trains.

 

[pstogios]

I got banned for calling out ridiculously uninformed and Trumpian paranoia. Now the ban is over and it looks like I missed a ton more idiotic stuff here.
This thread is a black hole - just like the Scarborough subway will be for the City's finances.

 

[Sakraycore]

The problem with debating over the internet, is that you will almost never convince the other side. This thread is just full of side A vs side B, presenting the same facts/opinions over and over in an attempt to convince each other, but at the end no one is really swayed.

 

[BurlOak]

The problem with debating over the internet, is that you will almost never convince the other side. This thread is just full of side A vs side B, presenting the same facts/opinions over and over in an attempt to convince each other, but at the end no one is really swayed.

The big problem is that the debate is about 2 very poor plans - the 1 stop subway and the transfer LRT. If there were better solutions, maybe we could come to more of a consensus. I changed sides with the debate on this site:

1. When I first started, I was in favour of the B-D subway extension to STC. After realizing how Y-B is not the downtown destination most people are after, and realizing the numbers of people that would be transferring, and to some extent the cost (from the 2006 TTC report), I soured on this solution.
2. When I looked at the transfer LRT in the Transit City plan, I realized that had the exact same passenger flow patterns, but with 1 extra transfer. Essentially, it had all the problems, plus an additional transfer, just to save a few bucks.
3. I then realized that the line needs to go from Scarborough to Downtown without using the Yonge line. The connected SRT / ECLRT solve this quite well, but two things were missing. 1) The costs were too high - something that could be solved with elevation. 2) It would bring people to Y-E - something that could be solved with a DRL to Eglinton. Unfortunately, it was more important for Councillors and the Provincial Liberals to defeat Ford than to solve the transit problem or get a DRL to Eglinton, so this was scrapped.
4. I still think SmartSpur had some merit, but there were 2 main thing working against it - namely that Metrolinx didn't want to give up track space on the Markham or LSE corridor, and the Provincial Liberals did not want to give credit to John Tory for finding a solution. Thus this idea couldn't fly under the current circumstances.
5. The only other option is to find a whole new transit line that is not tainted by history. This can either be from Malvern to STC to Gatineau Hydro Corridor to Don Valley to Downtown, or Malvern to STC to Kingston Road to downtown.

#3, #4, and #5 all have the great benefit that they bring passengers closer to their destination. That being City Hall (with 1 transfer using DRL), Union (with SmartSpur), or Financial District (with a new line).

 

[OneCity]

The big problem is that the debate is about 2 very poor plans - the 1 stop subway and the transfer LRT. If there were better solutions, maybe we could come to more of a consensus. I changed sides with the debate on this site:

1. When I first started, I was in favour of the B-D subway extension to STC. After realizing how Y-B is not the downtown destination most people are after, and realizing the numbers of people that would be transferring, and to some extent the cost (from the 2006 TTC report), I soured on this solution.
2. When I looked at the transfer LRT in the Transit City plan, I realized that had the exact same passenger flow patterns, but with 1 extra transfer. Essentially, it had all the problems, plus an additional transfer, just to save a few bucks.
3. I then realized that the line needs to go from Scarborough to Downtown without using the Yonge line. The connected SRT / ECLRT solve this quite well, but two things were missing. 1) The costs were too high - something that could be solved with elevation. 2) It would bring people to Y-E - something that could be solved with a DRL to Eglinton. Unfortunately, it was more important for Councillors and the Provincial Liberals to defeat Ford than to solve the transit problem or get a DRL to Eglinton, so this was scrapped.
4. I still think SmartSpur had some merit, but there were 2 main thing working against it - namely that Metrolinx didn't want to give up track space on the Markham or LSE corridor, and the Provincial Liberals did not want to give credit to John Tory for finding a solution. Thus this idea couldn't fly under the current circumstances.
5. The only other option is to find a whole new transit line that is not tainted by history. This can either be from Malvern to STC to Gatineau Hydro Corridor to Don Valley to Downtown, or Malvern to STC to Kingston Road to downtown.

#3, #4, and #5 all have the great benefit that they bring passengers closer to their destination. That being City Hall (with 1 transfer using DRL), Union (with SmartSpur), or Financial District (with a new line).

Agreed the plans debated are poor and neither will be heavily supported on their details, although Tory may have the lets just move forward vote. I moved to Malvern in the Miller years (an areas which would have received a Sheppard LRT stop) and seriously all i heard from many neighbours was Political frustration and apathy regarding the subway, complaints about the RT and the uselessness of City council to ignore Scarborough residents. Scarborough commuters didn't commute downtown over the last few decades for the exact reason it took forever and there were too many transfers along the way. So the transit flow data is heavily skewed based on inadequate infrastructure. Not saying the subway solves everything by no means but its a far better start and certainly fixing a mistake. (I acknowledge the RT is debatable for its many questionable aspects)

This mindset is certainly held through out many parts of Scarborough although it is constantly being pushed to de-bunk by opposition and their random narrow polls. Many residents also want Scarborough Centre connected without forcing a transfer one stop before just like in North York. Now you look at outside Toronto suburbs in Vaughan Centre and soon Richmond Hill and ask why would an area with 2-3 times the population respectively not be demanding a subway to its core? Really seemed like an easy fix to move foward either plan to add a bit more money so the BDL can connect thru the RT corridor with similar impact as the LRT or even the compromise and connect the LRT to SCC as Ford/McGuinty offered.

Surely, many residents are currently not happy at all with Tory's single stop subway, they certainly want stops. But the recent narratives being flung saying residents who are demanding stops now want transfer LRT is just grounds for further Political nonsense. Seemed pretty clear the last two elections and then some what people here preferred? But the opposition is still trying to dictate and unwanted plan and Tory has butchered the SSE with Smarttrack, so both plans may have cracked the door open once again for another polarizing candidate rather than help the support. We'll see soon enough. As long as Eglinton East stays tied to the SSE I can support Tory's SSE just to keep moving and hope council loosens to put the stop back in at Lawrence. Just have no use for the mainly outside Politicians trying to force a rejected transfer plan with zero compromise or help at this stage.

Tory is doing well supporting all areas preferences within the City and is now pointing the gun directly at the Province to come to the table while the Federal Government is here. Who knows how it will turn out but seems to make alot more sense than trying to beat Scarborough into Political submission to save a paltry fraction on the grander scale of transit building in this City. Very unfortunate, but hopefully we can start seeing some form of adequate funding and plan to fund for all tabled projects and move forward with some sense of compromise for other.

A real issue in the City revolved around lack of capital funding and long term plan by the Province and Feds. Our internal divisive Politics is in large part caused because of this neglect and nudging the Politicians disrespect the choices from outside areas, no ability to understand or share common transit concerns to support the Operational & maintenance funding challenges as City priorities, and also in turn limits the City's chances of moving forward or focusing on what is really missing. Unfortunate indeed.