Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[APTA-2048]

This I don't agree with. When Ford proposed the compromise of a connected SRT with ECLRT, using LRT technology, there where no complaints from Scarborough, or any of the former boroughs.

That shows that all Scarborough wanted was to be connect to the City with a continuous rapid transit line. Transit technology was not an issue.

Too bad Councillors (and governing Liberal MPP's) put politics ahead of transit when they killed the compromise plan. Now, the well has been poisoned quite badly that I don't think anyone can solve it.

Ford didn't propose anything. He would have preferred it all be canceled. Both sides eventually reached the compromise.

 

[Hopkins123]

Well, I for one believe the one stop extension is stupid. What are your opinions?

There definitely needs to be more funding in place to get a full extension out to Malvern with roughly 7-8 new stops. Lack of intermediate stops and lack of new coverage area beyond the Town Centre is the tactical blunder John Tory and company keeps making.

 

[Hopkins123]

Ford didn't propose anything. He would have preferred it all be canceled. Both sides eventually reached the compromise.

The saddest thing about the Karen Stintz coup d'etat was the missed opportunity to fully grade separate the Eglinton East ROW. It matters not whether Rob Ford was actually the mastermind, the MOU plan was still spades superior to the mess we're in now.

 

[Steve X]

The saddest thing about the Karen Stintz coup d'etat was the missed opportunity to fully grade separate the Eglinton East ROW. It matters not whether Rob Ford was actually the mastermind, the MOU plan was still spades superior to the mess we're in now.

It would been better if they explored partial grade separation at Leslie, DVP and VP/Pharmacy oppose to the fully grade separation which would had cost over $9b. ML knew it can't be done using all the money from Finch and Sheppard.

 

[BurlOak]

The saddest thing about the Karen Stintz coup d'etat was the missed opportunity to fully grade separate the Eglinton East ROW. It matters not whether Rob Ford was actually the mastermind, the MOU plan was still spades superior to the mess we're in now.

I agree the Ford was no mastermind, but he was able to get Metrolinx to table the connected SRT/ECLRT pla. I understand that plan was always on Metrolinx's agenda, but David Miller had too much clout to table it. Metrolinx showed their political side again by staying quite, and even burying the June 2012 business case (which showed the combined as best), just to not be seen as supporting a Ford idea.

 

[TOareaFan]

Can yo clarify.....when you say:

...rally against the greater Scarborough voter

Are you suggesting that Scarborough is some sort of metropolitan regional municipality now.....or, in the alternative, the voters of Scarborough are actually better than most?

We can agree to disagree on how unbiased the media is here.

Really am just a casual observer of this thread......but the only reaction I had when reading that sentence was .....it really doesn't seem like you can!

 

[syn]

A red herring in my perspective. Scarborough's City Hall was at SCC. Along with the school board office, and federal building. STC was there as well. Essentially the foundation of administrative centre. Add in all the non-TTC bus services and SCC is a natural hub for Scarborough where Kennedy isn't. SCC is also a lot closer to the Geographic centre of Scarborough than Kennedy. I'll never understand why people think Kennedy was natural for development as a dense node. Even now, SCC is actually doing better with densification with just an RT stop than Kennedy.

More broadly though, they way I see it, is that the RT has simply poisoned the well for LRT. It is so bad that people have an instantaneous reaction to anything with the letters "R" And "T" in it. Had they built the subway back then, our transit discussion would be completely different, and probably wouldn't be substantially focused on the East End.

Heck, I've also said before that if they had actually extended the SRT to Malvern, as they talked about in the 90s, the LRT plan would have had more support. Instead, they propose to inconvenience people for two years for a line that barely touches the edge of Malvern, and wonder why many want the subway? People don't like to transfer. Planners need to get over that. They can either move the subway transfer point from Kennedy to STC. Or add LRT stops so that fewer people have to transfer from bus to LRT to begin with. What I don't get is why people are still flogging that dead horse of an LRT plan instead of saying why don't we build Eglinton East to Sheppard and Scarborough LRT to Morningside Heights. They could kill support for the subway overnight. Not one City Councillor has offered this alternative publicly, that I know of.

The real red herring is that idea that STC must have a subway stop to be successful and/or deserves one simply because people don't like to transfer.

Warden station was built in 1968 - why wasn't Scarbourough's City Centre built in that area instead?

Why was it built, just like Square One (which opened the same year), in an open field near the highway?

The answer is that it was never designed to be a transit friendly 'city centre' - it was an auto-oriented development for an auto-oriented suburb.

This is exactly why a subway there never made any sense. A subway is the ultimate mode of urban transit. It's nature demands a certain level of density. This is why Mississauga hasn't built any subways, despite doing a much better job of building a 'city centre', without the benefit of a direct rail connection to a TTC station.

Scarborough still doesn't have that level of density, and STC is far enough north that a transfer makes perfect sense.

As a frequent RT rider I'm not sure what's so bad about it either. It's smaller than a subway train, but it's usually a quick and efficient ride. Outside rush hour, there's plenty of room.

And all of this complaining about a transfer is ridiculous. People don't like taking out the garbage either. Will the residents of Scarborough demand door -to-truck garbage collection once the subway is complete? When will the mistreatment end!

 

[micheal_can]

So, lets not do anything and leave things as is.

 

[kEiThZ]

The answer is that it was never designed to be a transit friendly 'city centre' - it was an auto-oriented development for an auto-oriented suburb.

You're right. But good luck convincing hundreds of thousands of voters today that they should pay for a 50 year old mistake.

As a frequent RT rider I'm not sure what's so bad about it either. It's smaller than a subway train, but it's usually a quick and efficient ride. Outside rush hour, there's plenty of room.

And this right here is the problem. The average commuter does not give a rat's tail what happens outside peak, because most of them are riding at peak. If every interaction for you, with the RT is at peak, when it's rammed, rickety, loud and breaks down, you're not going to say, "Well, this thing is probably better off-peak."

I don't get why transit advocates find it so hard to accept that the RT experience is so terrible when the guys who built the thing say the experience (as maintained by the TTC) is terrible.

And all of this complaining about a transfer is ridiculous.

Again. Good luck with your crusade. You only have to convince a few hundred thousand people. And I'm sure belittling them is going to suuuperrr-effective.

Like I said, SRT or LRT would have been a lot more sellable if it went right into Malvern (or even beyond). There's a reason people haven't moved on the subway plan, even as costs have risen. And that's because people are still judging the transfer to be such a pain in the six, they are willing to put up with the longer bus ride to SC. The LRT is only sellable if you can either walk to it or have a very, very short bus ride to it. Yet instead of offering them a truly attractive alternative, transit advocates resort to belittling their concerns and telling them they aren't worth the extra few kms of LRT investment. I'm sure that strategy is going to work out fantastically.

 

[crs1026]

They do the cheapest option. Why do you think they won't do it again - part of the Yonge extension is cut-and-cover.

Is there any evidence this comparison has been made? The staff comments during the past rounds of Council debate has focussed on a bored approach.

- Paul

 

[syn]

You're right. But good luck convincing hundreds of thousands of voters today that they should pay for a 50 year old mistake.



And this right here is the problem. The average commuter does not give a rat's tail what happens outside peak, because most of them are riding at peak. If every interaction for you, with the RT is at peak, when it's rammed, rickety, loud and breaks down, you're not going to say, "Well, this thing is probably better off-peak."

I don't get why transit advocates find it so hard to accept that the RT experience is so terrible when the guys who built the thing say the experience (as maintained by the TTC) is terrible.



Again. Good luck with your crusade. You only have to convince a few hundred thousand people. And I'm sure belittling them is going to suuuperrr-effective.

Like I said, SRT or LRT would have been a lot more sellable if it went right into Malvern (or even beyond). There's a reason people haven't moved on the subway plan, even as costs have risen. And that's because people are still judging the transfer to be such a pain in the six, they are willing to put up with the longer bus ride to SC. The LRT is only sellable if you can either walk to it or have a very, very short bus ride to it. Yet instead of offering them a truly attractive alternative, transit advocates resort to belittling their concerns and telling them they aren't worth the extra few kms of LRT investment. I'm sure that strategy is going to work out fantastically.

So...after all this your argument basically boils down to 'constituents in Scarborough are too ignorant to reason with; let's 'fix' a 50 year old mistake by spending billions upon billions on another mistake'.

The RT really isn't that bad, even during rush hour. Is it crowded? Sure. But then try riding the Yonge Line during rush hour, when people often have to wait for one (and sometimes two) trains just to get on. Ask Spadina or King streetcar riders how they feel about having to wait in the dead of winter as streetcars are either delayed, too crowded to board, or short-turned before they reach their destination. Crowding is a fact of life on Toronto transit during rush hour...but we have to spend billions for what's ultimately a low priority project because the current line is rickety?!

No thanks.

 

[OneCity]

So...after all this your argument basically boils down to 'constituents in Scarborough are too ignorant to reason with; let's 'fix' a 50 year old mistake by spending billions upon billions on another mistake'.

The RT really isn't that bad, even during rush hour. Is it crowded? Sure. But then try riding the Yonge Line during rush hour, when people often have to wait for one (and sometimes two) trains just to get on. Ask Spadina or King streetcar riders how they feel about having to wait in the dead of winter as streetcars are either delayed, too crowded to board, or short-turned before they reach their destination. Crowding is a fact of life on Toronto transit during rush hour...but we have to spend billions for what's ultimately a low priority project because the current line is rickety?!

No thanks.

The RT was the real mistake. If we built the subway initially we wouldn't be here. Forcing the transfer line is not going to get you any real $ savings required for relief downtown and even worse the mass apathetic Scarborough voter will be amped up to a new level and their Politicians wont support this cause. This should be crystal clear based on the last 2 Municipal elections, recent Provincial and Municipal bi elections and Provincial opposition support. But if that's still not enough to ring some bells to think finding a compromise might be a good idea then we'll just have to see how well this plan of attack turns out. Tory's lackluster one stop plan might actually be the best deal still available for the opposition if they cant learn to compromise (which seems clear they cant) and continue with the iron fist to force the unwanted transfer LRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

So...after all this your argument basically boils down to 'constituents in Scarborough are too ignorant to reason with;

Doubling down, I see.

So you completely ignored what I said about the flaws of the LRT plan. Keep at it. I'm out. You don't seem interested in making LRT palatable. You only seem interested in browbeating Scarborough voters in accepting the current LRT plan. Have at it.

I'll be glad when this debate is settled after the next election.

 

[ShonTron]

As long as a certain agenda driven media continues to be applauded by a few here as they rally against the greater Scarborough voter with condescending headlines and finding selective facts to support the repetitive talking points then this will obviously be reflected in the discussion.

We can agree to disagree on how unbiased the media is here. But I undoubtedly see a clear agenda and for this reason am ready to move on with any non transfer plan as there is little hope for compromising

This kind of "argument" is another example of what the problem is with this thread. Another one-thread poster throws another accusation grenade in and let the posts fly.

 

[ShonTron]

First, this line gets said a lot.

Is there any evidence to suggest that its true? There are plenty of examples in the city where this didn't happen. Downsview, much of Sheppard outside of North York Center, much of the Danforth. Really the only example of a subway encouraging density was north york center, and I suppose Yonge and Eglinton now, both of which have the "On Yonge Street" advantage.

If you look at Mississauga, they've encouraged density long before they got any form of rapid transit, and the rapid transit they did have planned was an LRT, not a subway. In Ontario thats probably the best comparison considering both are trying to build density around a mall.

Subways are not a guarantee of density. Nor are they a requirement of density. Proper urban planning is what brings density. You need to create favorable conditions and actually have a conscious plan of what you want to achieve. Zoning, tax-incentives, and yes, infrastructure, its all relevant and it all goes together. People here seem think that the one single way develop is possible is a subway but there isn't any reason to believe that is actually true.

Secondly, why does anyone care? Seriously, why does the average person in Scarborough care at all about development around the STC? Sure, the city should probably care (though building subways through green fields hasn't stopped them before...), but why do you? It seems completely irrelevant to the average person's life. The only thing that should be important is how long it takes to get to work, and at last I checked the benefits would be a couple minutes at most overall, and more time spent on a bus.

"Build a subway to encourage density." Thats a pretty damn expensive way to do it. How about we "build a subway to improve the efficiency of our transportation network so it doesn't take people two hours to get home."

Where did I say that? You're misquoting me.