Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Voltz]

Good grief, let's spend multi-billions of dollars on another parallel Lawrence LRT line when we could just fixed the Crosstown Line with grade-separation now while it's still feasible to do so. Then next it will be parallel St Clair East, York Mills/Wilson, Steeles and even McNicoll LRT lines to join whatever becomes of Finch East and Sheppard East. I sincerely hope whichever government is propagating this madness is kicked to the curb in the next election.

Good grief, a grade separated Eglinton line would not prevent the need for all those other lines, nor would they all be needed anyways. My point was that Eglinton would not get over capacity, for several reasons including what others have mention, and another line or two that would get built anyway such as the midtown go line would be one of them.

 

[Voltz]

Oh, please don't remind us how regrettable a mistake has been made not to grade-separate the Crosstown Line east of Brentcliffe while we can.

"would have only saved a few minutes of travel time" is also a fallacy as the average speed of the Crosstown Line east of the tunnel will only be 20-22 km/h versus 31-35 km/hr in the tunnel. If I'm at Kennedy Station and I have a choice between that average speed and the Bloor-Danforth complete grade-separated speeds which can clock in at over 40 km/hr, I think I know which one I'd take to get over to Yonge Street, just saying.

But you and syn have proven a point, surface rail has been around for over 35 years serving the Scarborough Town Centre and it is exceeding it's carrying capacity. The next logical step is to upgrade to heavy rail underground transit just like what was done for the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth streetcar routes.

If I'm at Kennedy Station I would rather have gotten there on another line, like the SRT extension or Eglinton East, that could have been built with the $2 Billion that would have been spent on burying Eglinton than a bus.

The SRT is only full now because of a lack of vehicles, its capacity would have been at least tripled after getting upgraded.

 

[pstogios]

Councilors have tried to 'compromise' but Scarborough is demanding a subway...and that includes Scarborough Councilors spreading misinformation. Even with costs rising to ridiculous levels and the plan reduced to just one stop, it must be a subway.

There's certainly a lack of compromise at play. It's coming from those who feel they shouldn't have to transfer and that a subway is something deserved, rather than built based on actual ridership data and density.

Nailed it.

FULL STOP.

Syn I sugggest you stop debating Coffey/OneCity because he is more obstinate and ignorant of any rationality than Trump's inflappable base when Trump shoots someone on Fifth Avenue. Your intelligence is wasted on that one.

This thread has become never ending merry-go-round of logic vs ignorance.

 

[syn]

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/19/torys-subway-to-success

"When it comes to the controversial Scarborough subway extension, 60% of Torontonians are supportive, 20% disapprove and 21% have no opinion, Campaign Research found."

Again just another media poll take it for what it is. But gotta show them all.

60% support for the one stop seems high to me. But after all the elections with a clear vote within Scarborough itself, this sheds some light on the questionable Political strategy going excessively "all in" to push the transfer LRT going into a Municipal election in addition to the unprecedented Provincial support. Seems to do more to keep a Ford figure around more than it does help them have any chance in a Mayoral race.

Where was the poll taken, exactly? What questions were asked?

 

[syn]

If I'm at Kennedy Station I would rather have gotten there on another line, like the SRT extension or Eglinton East, that could have been built with the $2 Billion that would have been spent on burying Eglinton than a bus.

The SRT is only full now because of a lack of vehicles, its capacity would have been at least tripled after getting upgraded.

Exactly.

The Yonge Line was only built after a subway was justified - it was the next logical step up.

That clearly isn't the case in Scarborough.

 

[amnesiajune]

The Yonge Line was only built after a subway was justified - it was the next logical step up.

No it wasn't. It was so overbuilt at the time that there were rolling brownouts in nearby areas, and they ran two-car trains during off-peak hours. Yonge & Finch at the time it's subway station opened would make Scarborough Centre look like Dundas Square.

 

[syn]

No it wasn't. It was so overbuilt at the time that there were rolling brownouts in nearby areas, and they ran two-car trains during off-peak hours. Yonge & Finch at the time it's subway station opened would make Scarborough Centre look like Dundas Square.

I'm referring to the original Yonge Line, which opened in 1954. Finch opened 20 years later.

 

[amnesiajune]

I'm referring to the original Yonge Line, which opened in 1954.

I am too. They literally didn't have enough off-peak ridership to support four-car trains outside of rush hour, and those train cars were less than three quarters of the length of the current T1 and TR cars.

 

[OneCity]

Where was the poll taken, exactly? What questions were asked?

Very good questions always worth asking when the media produces polls. But when I question those items about a Star poll here the bats come out by a few in this forum and the intolerant chants of paranoia, Trump or Ford soon follow.

As I said take it for what it is, another poll with a Political agenda. Based on the past two elections and recent bi-elections I would say the results seem to line up a bit more with reality of where support resides in this City. Obviously things can change with a better candidate from the City's "left" Opposition who might come forward with a competitive platform or a Ford throwing his 20-30% support base at Tory and running Provincially . But between Ford and Tory platforms there is overwhelming support. I have no idea what the subway opposition is even thinking

 

[syn]

What would've been the next logical step instead of a subway, given the built form, location and growth?

 

[syn]

Very good questions always worth asking when the media produces polls. But when I question those items about a Star poll here the bats come out by a few in this forum and the intolerant chants of paranoia, Trump or Ford soon follow.

As I said take it for what it is, another poll with a Political agenda. Based on the past two elections and recent bi-elections I would say the results seem to line up a bit more with reality of where support resides in this City. Obviously things can change with a better candidate from the City's "left" Opposition who might come forward with a competitive platform or a Ford throwing his 20-30% support base at Tory and running Provincially . But between Ford and Tory platforms there is overwhelming support. I have no idea what the opposition is thinking?

My point is that the questions asked in the poll were actually mentioned in the Star article.

The Sun article doesn't mention anything.

There is overwhelming support for subways everywhere. Ask residents on Jane if they'd like a subway line there, I'm sure the vast majority would be in favour.

Unfortunately practical considerations like ridership and density are what should matter.

 

[OneCity]

My point is that the questions asked in the poll were actually mentioned in the Star article.

The Sun article doesn't mention anything.

There is overwhelming support for subways everywhere. Ask residents on Jane if they'd like a subway line there, I'm sure the vast majority would be in favour.

Unfortunately practical considerations like ridership and density are what should matter.

You are comparing SSE to a Jane subway? Maybe Markham Rd would be better a closer comparison.

There are many details that matter beyond the ones that force a transfer before SCC and a plan that has allowed a Sheppard subway stub to stay intact and force commuters to board off and on as an extra transfer they dont have now and understandably dont want. More practical consideration was required here, but practical solutions can only be achieved when other areas Politicians are moderately willing to work & help resolve these issues that are clearly identified.

No point going into the ridership and density argument as its all been said and I refuse to defend Tory's plan against this long rejected transfer LRT plan as neither plan should be tabled. Torys plan only gets consideration because of the current polarization

 

[amnesiajune]

What would've been the next logical step instead of a subway, given the built form, location and growth?

A subway was the next logical step, even if it was was under capacity. There's more to transit than existing ridership. I don't understand why some people refuse to accept that. Transit is about planning for the future and connecting people. A subway line that's well under capacity still makes sense to build if it'll be justified 15 years later, like the Yonge Subway and its extension would be, or if the subway connects one part of the city to the rest of the city, like the SSE will do.

 

[Edward Skira]

A subway was the next logical step, even if it was was under capacity. There's more to transit than existing ridership. I don't understand why some people refuse to accept that. Transit is about planning for the future and connecting people. A subway line that's well under capacity still makes sense to build if it'll be justified 15 years later, like the Yonge Subway and its extension would be, or if the subway connects one part of the city to the rest of the city, like the SSE will do.

Not when you have a limited budget and other areas have larger needs today.

 

[salsa]

Where was the poll taken, exactly? What questions were asked?

What I do know is Campaign Research is owned by Nick Kouvallis (the campaign manager of John Tory and Rob Ford).