Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Midtown Urbanist]

In an almost teasing way, the Gordon Chong report, "Toronto transit back on track - Sheppard subway development and financial study", shows the plan and elevation of the Sheppard Subway from Consumers Station to STC (in the Appendix). However, 2 sets of drawings are missing, and these appear to be the Don Mill subway Station area, and the portion across Highway 404. Without these, I am just guessing, but based on what I have read, the Don Mills Station is very deep and it would be very difficult to elevate the line over highway 404 - even though Michael Schabas mentions it in his report. Subway could likely not accomplish the required grades.

I would guess that with Mark II or III, or LRT, it could handle steeper grades and it is likely possible for the transit line to surface just on the SW corner of Sheppard and 404 (there are no ramps there) and go over Highway 404 parallel to the road bridge and a bit south. Then the line would follow along the south side of Sheppard with Stations at Consumers, Vic Park, Warden, Birchmount, and Kennedy. It would then elevate above the GO and follow Highland Creek from just north of Progress to join in for Midland Station. Stations here would be GO (Markham and future crosstown) and the station from Midland Easterly.

If anyone has seen the drawings for Don Mills station and the route under 404, I would love it if it were posted, or a link provided. I could then figure out once and for all whether this elevation scheme is possible. I have stated before that if it is tunneled under 404, it would add much extra cost, and the process of switching from underground to elevated takes up a long length, which may not be feasible anywhere along Sheppard east of 404.

I just greatly dislike the idea that Sheppard is extended past Don Mills with the prospect of the Relief Line heading up there in a similar timeline.

I don't want to add a forced 1 stop transfer for people on the Sheppard bus. While it makes sense to extend the subway to Victoria Park and Consumers, it doesn't make sense to force a transfer just one stop before another transfer point with the Relief Line.

I'd rather we invest to making Fairview Mall a transit hub, and improving the connection between Don Mills and Victoria Park (bus ROW for instance?)

 

[BurlOak]

I just greatly dislike the idea that Sheppard is extended past Don Mills with the prospect of the Relief Line heading up there in a similar timeline.

I don't want to add a forced 1 stop transfer for people on the Sheppard bus. While it makes sense to extend the subway to Victoria Park and Consumers, it doesn't make sense to force a transfer just one stop before another transfer point with the Relief Line.

I'd rather we invest to making Fairview Mall a transit hub, and improving the connection between Don Mills and Victoria Park (bus ROW for instance?)

I agree that a 1 stop extension to Consumers is not good. that is why all the references immediately before this (subway or Mark II) go all the way to STC. Maybe could stop at Agincourt GO depending on what type of RER they are going to build.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I agree that a 1 stop extension to Consumers is not good. that is why all the references immediately before this (subway or Mark II) go all the way to STC. Maybe could stop at Agincourt GO depending on what type of RER they are going to build.

Well, then we enter into the discourse where it is STC or nothing, for the subway on Sheppard. That comes with a hefty pricetag.

 

[sixrings]

Well, then we enter into the discourse where it is STC or nothing, for the subway on Sheppard. That comes with a hefty pricetag.

go big or go home

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

go big or go home

If we go big, are we thinking about means of cost-reduction? Such as elevated?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In an almost teasing way, the Gordon Chong report, "Toronto transit back on track - Sheppard subway development and financial study", shows the plan and elevation of the Sheppard Subway from Consumers Station to STC (in the Appendix). However, 2 sets of drawings are missing, and these appear to be the Don Mill subway Station area, and the portion across Highway 404. Without these, I am just guessing, but based on what I have read, the Don Mills Station is very deep and it would be very difficult to elevate the line over highway 404 - even though Michael Schabas mentions it in his report. Subway could likely not accomplish the required grades.

I would guess that with Mark II or III, or LRT, it could handle steeper grades and it is likely possible for the transit line to surface just on the SW corner of Sheppard and 404 (there are no ramps there) and go over Highway 404 parallel to the road bridge and a bit south. Then the line would follow along the south side of Sheppard with Stations at Consumers, Vic Park, Warden, Birchmount, and Kennedy. It would then elevate above the GO and follow Highland Creek from just north of Progress to join in for Midland Station. Stations here would be GO (Markham and future crosstown) and the station from Midland Easterly.

If anyone has seen the drawings for Don Mills station and the route under 404, I would love it if it were posted, or a link provided. I could then figure out once and for all whether this elevation scheme is possible. I have stated before that if it is tunneled under 404, it would add much extra cost, and the process of switching from underground to elevated takes up a long length, which may not be feasible anywhere along Sheppard east of 404.

I just greatly dislike the idea that Sheppard is extended past Don Mills with the prospect of the Relief Line heading up there in a similar timeline.

I don't want to add a forced 1 stop transfer for people on the Sheppard bus. While it makes sense to extend the subway to Victoria Park and Consumers, it doesn't make sense to force a transfer just one stop before another transfer point with the Relief Line.

I'd rather we invest to making Fairview Mall a transit hub, and improving the connection between Don Mills and Victoria Park (bus ROW for instance?)

I agree that a 1 stop extension to Consumers is not good. that is why all the references immediately before this (subway or Mark II) go all the way to STC. Maybe could stop at Agincourt GO depending on what type of RER they are going to build.

Well, then we enter into the discourse where it is STC or nothing, for the subway on Sheppard. That comes with a hefty pricetag.

Only viable options for a Line 4 extension are elevated or at grade ICTS or LRT all the way to Scarborough Town Centre. Further use of underground subways, or any rapid transit extension that doesn't go all the way to STC, is unacceptable.

I feel the most realistic solution is LRT at grade between Don Mills and Kennedy. That's a 5 km trip, which would take about 13 mins to make with at-grade LRT. At Kennedy, it would then use the Stouffville corridor to connect to STC and (hopefully) Malvern Town Centre.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And here's a map to illustrate what was conceptualized to potentially happen, had the Scarborough LRT plan been built in the 80s. All of these corridors were identified as having potential to eventually host ICTS branches or lines, along with the Scarborough LRT. Precise station locations were never defined, but realistically we were looking at anywhere from 18 to 30 stations within Scarborough, had the concept been built out (I'm hesitant to use the word "plan" here, as this was merely the TTC and Metro planners realizing that there was tremendous opportunity to cover Scarborough in ICTS/LRT lines branching off the main Scarborough LRT; none of this was ever an official plan, like Transit City, Move2020 or The Big Move)

Obviously, there was the main LRT branch running from Warden Station in the west to Malvern Town Centre in the east via Scarborough Town Centre. There were plans for another intermediate capacity transit branch, which would've branched off from the main branch north of Ellesmere, continued up the Stouffville rail corridor, and then turn west either along Sheppard Avenue or Finch Avenue to connect to the rest of Metro Toronto. Another branch might have even continued further north on Souffville to serve Milliken and North Scarborough. Finally, the Eglinton ICTS (probably LRT) would have been extended east of Kennedy to Brimley to connect with the GO Station there. From there, there was potential for further eastern extensions to UTSC. This extension to from Brimley UTSC wasn't part of the official plan, but I've decided to highlight it anyways given the identical Crosstown East proposal.

Now compare this to what we actually got: one solitary subway station at the Town Centre. Think of how many Scarborough residents would be within a few minutes of rapid transit had we just listened to the planners back in the 1970s, and not allowed politicians to tinker with the plans. Today, we'd be talking about how Scarborough is a model for efficient mass transit within suburban areas, rather than whining about an inconvenient transfer. Scarborough could have had a mass transit network rivalling full fledged cities like Vancouver's Skytrain, or London's Docklands Light Railway. But the moment we let the politicians tinker with the plans in the 80s, all that potential went to shit. We went from all this potential, to a single subway station. Its a travesty what we've done with transit in Scarborough.

I've scanned the original proposal:

All of the optional rapid transit lines shown were envisioned as Intermediate-Capacity Rapid Transit. The branches I described in my prior posts are documented here. Also noteworthy is the Relief Line alignment, running from downtown to Finch via Don Mills Avenue; I believe this is the earliest I've seen a Relief Line proposal go so far north (there are prior proposals that had it terminate at Eglinton).

All this comes from Ed Levy's Rapid Transit in Toronto book.

And because I couldn't help myself, a fantasy map of how Scarborough's transit network likely would have developed, had we not let politics interfere with the original proposal. 34 rapid transit stations, covering every corner of Scarborough, that very likely would've cost less than the single station Scarborough is getting today - shed a tear

 

[BurlOak]

Only viable options for a Line 4 extension are elevated or at grade ICTS or LRT all the way to Scarborough Town Centre. Further use of underground subways, or any rapid transit extension that doesn't go all the way to STC, is unacceptable.

I feel the most realistic solution is LRT at grade between Don Mills and Kennedy. That's a 5 km trip, which would take about 13 mins to make with at-grade LRT. At Kennedy, it would then use the Stouffville corridor to connect to STC and (hopefully) Malvern Town Centre.

I am a bit worried about discussing Sheppard in a SSE thread, but these line should be linked as part of a system and it is not fully possible to look at each in isolation.

The caveat with LRT is that I don't think it fits into the Sheppard subway tunnel. Again, I am not sure if this is only for low floor LRT, or is it that no LRT will fit. If we spend $500M to $1B to upgrade the tunnel (which seems like a very difficult operation to me), that could be used to built 5 to 10km of elevated line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I am a bit worried about discussing Sheppard in a SSE thread, but these line should be linked as part of a system and it is not fully possible to look at each in isolation.

The caveat with LRT is that I don't think it fits into the Sheppard subway tunnel. Again, I am not sure if this is only for low floor LRT, or is it that no LRT will fit. If we spend $500M to $1B to upgrade the tunnel (which seems like a very difficult operation to me), that could be used to built 5 to 10km of elevated line.

Yes. If the costs of the Sheppard conversion to ICTS, plus the elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy is cheaper than the conversion to LRT, with the LRT at grade to Kennedy, them I'm all for it.

Part of me is hoping the costs of the SSE balloon to the point where we revert back to to the plan of upgrading the SRT to Mk 3 standards, so we can at least discuss a more integrated network, with connections to Malvern and the Sheppard Subway. This one stop proposal is madness.

 

[Hopkins123]

Yes. If the costs of the Sheppard conversion to ICTS, plus the elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy is cheaper than the conversion to LRT, with the LRT at grade to Kennedy, them I'm all for it.

Part of me is hoping the costs of the SSE balloon to the point where we revert back to to the plan of upgrading the SRT to Mk 3 standards, so we can at least discuss a more integrated network, with connections to Malvern and the Sheppard Subway. This one stop proposal is madness.

Contorting ourselves into knots just to save a couple billion dollars is madness. Better to add in more stations to the existing plan than trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Contorting ourselves into knots just to save a couple billion dollars is madness. Better to add in more stations to the existing plan than trying to reinvent the wheel.

Yes. What's a couple billion dollars between friends?

The issue isn't the the amount of money, or tying to save a couple billion dollars. The issue is value for money. I'd much rather spend $5 Billion on 40 stops than $3 or $4 Billion on one or two stops.

Spending billions on removing an inconvenient transfer, when we could be spending that money to bring a huge percentage of Scarborough residents within a few minutes of rapid transit, is insane.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Contorting ourselves into knots just to save a couple billion dollars is madness. Better to add in more stations to the existing plan than trying to reinvent the wheel.

The contorting is being done on your end, in order to rationalize/justify spending billions of dollars needlessly, if you ask me.

Since when did saving a couple billion dollars become not a worthwhile objective? Especially when we are comparing apples-to-apples comparison? (Subway network compared to LRT or ICTS network?)

 

[BurlOak]

Yes. If the costs of the Sheppard conversion to ICTS, plus the elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy is cheaper than the conversion to LRT, with the LRT at grade to Kennedy, them I'm all for it.

Part of me is hoping the costs of the SSE balloon to the point where we revert back to to the plan of upgrading the SRT to Mk 3 standards, so we can at least discuss a more integrated network, with connections to Malvern and the Sheppard Subway. This one stop proposal is madness.

This is my goal as well, but I do not know how to accomplish it since everyone is talking "subway" now.

My guess would be that the Conservatives (the Liberals may try it too and say they changed their minds) would say they would conduct real Value Engineering, to ensure that the best and most efficient subway connection is made between Scarborough City Centre and Toronto. They would have to be unequivocal that STC would be connected continuously and grade-separated. This would allow them to campaign for subways - because I don't think anyone dares not do it. Then, after the election, they would have to study the problem quickly and announce a new way of serving STC - and have enough proof that a mini-metro is indeed a subway and that it serves much more than just STC. They would have to begin work on this within their 1st term.

They have $3.5B from the SSE, and another $1.2B from the Sheppard SELRT. I would think that some additional money could also be thrown in, since it will only be paid out in year 4+. Let's say Sheppard is 7km @$150M/km = $1.1B. Conversion of Sheppard is another $300M. SRT is 6km long @$60M/km conversion cost (plus some for a new Ellesmere tunnel), so maybe $500M for conversion. Extension to Malvern is 6km @150M/km = $900M. Total is $2.8B.

The only thing missing is the forced transfer at Kennedy. I think its too late to connect to ECLRT, but it is interesting to note that it would have added maybe $1B to the total ECLRT cost to elevate it, which would have fit into the budget. So instead, I would propose a 14km trip elevated in the Gatineau Hydro corridor and along Don Valley to Corktown. That's a bit over $2B, which almost fits into the budget. {There is still that last bit to get downtown that would be more expensive and well outside of the current budget.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Part of me is hoping the costs of the SSE balloon to the point where we revert back to to the plan of upgrading the SRT to Mk 3 standards, so we can at least discuss a more integrated network, with connections to Malvern and the Sheppard Subway. This one stop proposal is madness.

I agree with a SRT upgrade but many of you don't want that. It is either LRT or subway. I am surprised that the LRT crowd is not trying to sell the SRT upgrade idea a little more

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I agree with a SRT upgrade but many of you don't want that. It is either LRT or subway. I am surprised that the LRT crowd is not trying to sell the SRT upgrade idea a little more

Well, frankly, I would have assumed that option was completely out of the window, given how Scarborough has been "screwed over" by the SRT.

@OneCity has always held that position on the SRT, so I would defer to him.