Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

That's not the choice the public is being forced to make though. There's a big difference between a stop and a station too. I wouldn't consider this:

To be on par with this:

You could build a zillion of the former and still not address the plight of large numbers of long-distance commuters trying to make crosstown trips in a timely manner.

And who said the 40 stops (or whatever hypothetical number of stops) would be on the street? They could very well be in an exclusive corridor, as was proposed in the 70s

The 70s LRT plan could have had roughly 20 surface stations in exclusive corridor, and another 15 to 20 on street in-median.

Or it could be the very similar Scarborough Wye proposal

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Just build something

 

[Leo_Chan]

Just build something

Just but 2 space elevators. One at Kennedy and one at STC. It’s totally worth the money for the long travel time

 

[WislaHD]

Why don't we invite Elon Musk to use Scarborough as test ground for his hyperloop?

 

[OneCity]

Why don't we invite Elon Musk to use Scarborough as test ground for his hyperloop?

Better yet, instead of mockery and trolling. We can still add stops to the subway which is completely as its still achievable to get something useful built in a timely manner.

 

[Rainforest]

If you guys want improvements to the SSE plan, please note that adjustments within the same concept are more likely to happen than dramatic changes.

Those could be:
- Re-designing the McCowan route, so that it crosses Highland Creek on a bridge and enables an affordable Lawrence East station.
- Taking the Brimley route
- Taking the Uxbridge Sub route (with a new Kennedy station).

I've seen nice alternative ideas here; just not sure that the City Council or the TTC brass will have an appetite for them.

 

[BurlOak]

If you guys want improvements to the SSE plan, please note that adjustments within the same concept are more likely to happen than dramatic changes.

Those could be:
- Re-designing the McCowan route, so that it crosses Highland Creek on a bridge and enables an affordable Lawrence East station.
- Taking the Brimley route
- Taking the Uxbridge Sub route (with a new Kennedy station).

I've seen nice alternative ideas here; just not sure that the City Council or the TTC brass will have an appetite for them.

Although I don't think its the best route, modifications to SSE are the most likely outcome.
I could also add extension to Sheppard as an option.

 

[WislaHD]

Although I don't think its the best route, modifications to SSE are the most likely outcome.
I could also add extension to Sheppard as an option.

I always thought that extension to Sheppard would make the SELRT very useful, more useful than originally planned, as a shuttle between Don Mills and McCowan.

SELRT with a Sheppard extension would never reach near capacity (not that I think it would have if it was unidirectional) as passenger flow will be split in bidirectionally. Somepoint around Agincourt, the majority travel direction will switch the other way.

But SELRT is off the table now.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why don't we invite Elon Musk to use Scarborough as test ground for his hyperloop?

Very timely comment in lieu of the Quayside imbroglio. I don't think many of them got it though....

 

[syn]

Stop with the deception. The subway was supposed to be extended via Brimley-Lawrence through an abandoned rail corridor that ran diagonally from Kennedy Stn to the Town Centre. We're paying a heavy price now for not pursuing that plan when opportunity struck.

No one is discounting that LRT works in other jurisdictions and for other needs. I'm pointing out though that stopping the Bloor-Danforth short of Scarborough Town Centre, a natural major destination for the subway to reach is equivalent to the Yonge Line stopping at Dundas and not going all the way to Union.

Since we live in a city where the subway already exists and most people travelling on the SRT now are destined for the subway, or STC in the reverse, it makes absolutely no sense to impose an LRT transfer of any sort in this corridor.

Source?

 

[syn]

Define 'rapid transit'. At least we know Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre per the SSE plan is 6 minutes. The current SRT route clocks in at around 10 minutes. Then there's the transferring time to consider.

So yeah we're talking about twice the time to connect the two points per a surface RT line in the SRT corridor. On street operation with a multiple of minor stops en route is little better than the existing 190 or 198 Rocket routes along Sheppard East and Eglinton East/Kingston respectively.

The value you're placing on 40 surface stops versus 3-4 grade-separated stations that can catalize development around them to justify the cost is ill-advised. We just as well could create a trunk subway spine up McCowan and have multiple BRT lines branch off from it (kind of like what's already being envisioned for STC). That's how you serve the majority of Scarborough residents.

Yes, the current route is 4 minutes longer...but I can get on/off at Lawrence, Ellesmere Midland, STC and McCowan.

There's also increased travel time for all the people who will now have longer bus rides. The TTC has already stated that trains running from Kennedy to STC likely won't run at full speed either.

The current RT is actually quite efficient. I probably can't get from Union to St. Clair in 10 minutes. I certainly can't get from Spadina and King to Spadina Station in 10 minutes, and it's only 3 kilometers or so. What about Union Station to Spadina, just a 4.5 km trip? It's about 20 minutes, and I have to make a transfer too.

A quick 8-10 minute ride to STC with four other stops is amazing.

 

[syn]

While that's true, don't forget that: a) Elections involve hundreds of thousands, while the polls are limited to 1,000 - 2,000 respondents. There is always a risk of an error in sampling; b) During elections, politicians with competing views have weeks or months to promote their plans and try to win the voter's minds. Polling normally involves a phone call to a responded who might not have thought much about the issue at hand, and he/she has just a few seconds to choose the best answer.

As I said before, both the polls (if conducted professionally) an the election results provide some insight into the voters' preferences. But neither gives an "ironclad proof" that you try to demand.

Do you understand the science behind polling? You don't have to ask every single resident to get an accurate result; you simply have to poll a valid sample set. The margin of error is included in the results.

These polls were done years into the debate. They've far more reliable than cherry picking election results. People voting may not care about transit either, and you have no way of knowing which votes voted specifically about one issue.

That example isn't really relevant, as the answer (in support of SSE) has been given by the City Council while the said costs were already outlined.

Except that the costs aren't fully outlined (council has stated there's room for at least 50% growth) and the majority of Torontoians are against the plan.

I wouldn't give much credit to the 2010 election results alone, for two reasons, a) RoFo indeed mislead many voters, and b) they were more about taxes than transit.

However, the 2014 municipal elections point in the same direction: pro-subway candidates did much better in Scarborough than pro-LRT (Chow's support plummeted from 38% at the start to 25% on the election day). I know that the elections were about multiple issues; I don't believe transit issues weren't a significant contributor though.

Plus, there were a few by-elections; remember Mitzie Hunter?

It is incredibly foolish to pretend that all those multiple elections results still mean nothing in transit planning.




....





Obviously, not. Remember that a significant portion of Scarborough population are visible minorities themselves, and a sizeable % of voters who supported RoFo were visible minorities.

Obviously, they couldn't have any personal interest in promoting biggoted agenda.

One can ask why they voted for RoFo then. I don't have a certain answer, but the most probable explanation is that they did not feel threatened by his biggoted personal views. And in a way, they were correct about it. Their human rights are protected by the federal laws and the system of courts. A mayor of the city have few mechanisms to implement any biggoted policies, regardless of his personal views.

On the other hand, his anti-tax, anti-spending agenda resonated with many voters, including recent immigrants who already acquired the citizenship. The 2010 elections were more about taxes and city spending than about transit.

Anyone can be a bigot - it's not exclusive to a specific demographic people. Anyone can be a homophobe, anyone can be racist against someone of another culture.

BTW you're completely contradicting yourself. Supposedly the last election was a decision on subways vs LRTs, yet Scarborough voted overwhelmingly in favour of Doug Ford, who basically ran the same platform as his brother in 2010, including the same misleading transit statements.
So was it a vote on the subway, or a vote for lower taxes and lower spending?

Is it fair to say Scarborough voted for homophobia and bigotry along with a subway?

 

[TOareaFan]

Why don't we invite Elon Musk to use Scarborough as test ground for his hyperloop?

wouldn't that still need a transfer?

 

[OneCity]

I always thought that extension to Sheppard would make the SELRT very useful, more useful than originally planned, as a shuttle between Don Mills and McCowan.

SELRT with a Sheppard extension would never reach near capacity (not that I think it would have if it was unidirectional) as passenger flow will be split in bidirectionally. Somepoint around Agincourt, the majority travel direction will switch the other way.

But SELRT is off the table now.

The SELRT corridor is suppose to be under review. So while its highly unlikely the SELRT would ever be supported in the old form I would agree they could make the case for a local loop if they extend the subway. But even the FWIW in terms of cost and convenience in the long run why not just finish the last stretch of subway to the stub anyway as a complete belt? The LRT could link from Eglinton East, thru Malvern to Agincourt (or McCowan) where the subway dead ends. I believe this to be the likely outcome, unless the subway is dead ended at Sheppard as you mentioned.

 

[OneCity]

Is it fair to say Scarborough voted for homophobia and bigotry along with a subway?

Don't remember him campaigning those topics? And what does this have to do with this topic or what good are you trying add here. Please just stop now or take it to a Politics thread if they even accept this nonsense here.