Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes. If the costs of the Sheppard conversion to ICTS, plus the elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy is cheaper than the conversion to LRT, with the LRT at grade to Kennedy, them I'm all for it.

Part of me is hoping the costs of the SSE balloon to the point where we revert back to to the plan of upgrading the SRT to Mk 3 standards, so we can at least discuss a more integrated network, with connections to Malvern and the Sheppard Subway. This one stop proposal is madness.

I agree with a SRT upgrade but many of you don't want that. It is either LRT or subway. I am surprised that the LRT crowd is not trying to sell the SRT upgrade idea a little more

They're just different types of trains that will provide a virtually identical experience for commuters; I don't know why anybody would be wedded to either the LRT to ICTS. I've historically been more supportive of the LRT, because it allows for street running, and should have lower per-kilometre construction costs for extensions than ICTS, but if theres an ICTS proposal that has lower or comparable prices (especially when factoring in Sheppard Line conversion and potential grade separation), then I'd be all for it.

 

[BurlOak]

Well, frankly, I would have assumed that option was completely out of the window, given how Scarborough has been "screwed over" by the SRT.

@OneCity has always held that position on the SRT, so I would defer to him.

The question is, if SRT upgrade costs $1.0B and SSE costs $3.5B, where would the remaining $2.5B be spent?

 

[BurlOak]

They're just different types of trains that will provide a virtually identical experience for commuters; I don't know why anybody would be wedded to either the LRT to ICTS. I've historically been more supportive of the LRT, because it allows for street running, and should have lower per-kilometre construction costs for extensions than ICTS, but if theres an ICTS proposal that has lower or comparable prices (especially when factoring in Sheppard Line conversion and potential grade separation), then I'd be all for it.

The original SRT is based on 35 year old technology. It would be quite easy to argue that computer technology has advanced greatly in this time and current Mark III is completely different than the original.
Reference could be made to the Vic 20 computer compared to computers of today, or the suitcase cell phone compare to the smartphone.

 

[WislaHD]

The question is, if SRT upgrade costs $1.0B and SSE costs $3.5B, where would the remaining $2.5B be spent?

That is silly. We must compare a $3.5 billion subway to a $1.5 billion LRT or $1.0 billion SRT only.

Compare a $3.5 billion subway to a $3.5 billion LRT / ICTS network? Scarborough councilors rightfully voted against it. Justice for Scarborough!

 

[Hopkins123]

Yes. What's a couple billion dollars between friends?

The issue isn't the the amount of money, or tying to save a couple billion dollars. The issue is value for money. I'd much rather spend $5 Billion on 40 stops than $3 or $4 Billion on one or two stops.

Spending billions on removing an inconvenient transfer, when we could be spending that money to bring a huge percentage of Scarborough residents within a few minutes of rapid transit, is insane.

Define 'rapid transit'. At least we know Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre per the SSE plan is 6 minutes. The current SRT route clocks in at around 10 minutes. Then there's the transferring time to consider.

So yeah we're talking about twice the time to connect the two points per a surface RT line in the SRT corridor. On street operation with a multiple of minor stops en route is little better than the existing 190 or 198 Rocket routes along Sheppard East and Eglinton East/Kingston respectively.

The value you're placing on 40 surface stops versus 3-4 grade-separated stations that can catalize development around them to justify the cost is ill-advised. We just as well could create a trunk subway spine up McCowan and have multiple BRT lines branch off from it (kind of like what's already being envisioned for STC). That's how you serve the majority of Scarborough residents.

 

[Hopkins123]

I agree with a SRT upgrade but many of you don't want that. It is either LRT or subway. I am surprised that the LRT crowd is not trying to sell the SRT upgrade idea a little more

The LRT plan only clocks in as 'cheaper' because of the preexisting surface/elevated right-of-way. If anything is to be renegotiated or rethought as a compromise between both sides it's the Murray alignment. If the Bloor-Danforth can be routed up the Stouffville corridor and LRT fans still complain, I'll be convinced that there's just no reasoning to be had.

 

[OneCity]

Well, frankly, I would have assumed that option was completely out of the window, given how Scarborough has been "screwed over" by the SRT.

@OneCity has always held that position on the SRT, so I would defer to him.

Well ya the SRT is a low quality design, with poor stop locations, poor visibility and it segregates Scarborough Centre. But aside from the reality it has some big flaws, and cost being the biggest issue some outsiders than the SRT upgrade would have made more sense.

Anyway the subway is actually happening.

 

[OneCity]

That is silly. We must compare a $3.5 billion subway to a $1.5 billion LRT or $1.0 billion SRT only.

Compare a $3.5 billion subway to a $3.5 billion LRT / ICTS network? Scarborough councilors rightfully voted against it. Justice for Scarborough!

Your LRT number is historical. Also if you are that enamored by the SRT corridor, lets throw the subway on that corridor back in to the fray so there is an enhancement for Scarborough.

Justice will be fixing the mistake of the past on the SRT, integrating with the mistake of the past on Sheppard then planning local routes. Which is what were doing. No band aid transfer plans.

 

[WislaHD]

Your LRT number is historical. Also if you are that enamored by the SRT corridor, lets throw the subway on that corridor back in to the fray so there is an enhancement for Scarborough.

Justice will be fixing the mistake of the past on the SRT, integrating with the mistake of the past on Sheppard then planning local routes. Which is what were doing. No band aid transfer plans.

So you would reject a 40+ station LRT network in favour of a 1 station subway?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Justice will be fixing the mistake of the past on the SRT, integrating with the mistake of the past on Sheppard then planning local routes. Which is what were doing. No band aid transfer plans.

This is the folly of some SSE advocates. There could be a plan to get a rapid transit station within a five minute walk of every resident in Scarborough, and they'd reject it if it necessitated a transfer at Kennedy, for the small subset of commuters that are travelling east of Kennedy

 

[BurlOak]

The LRT plan only clocks in as 'cheaper' because of the preexisting surface/elevated right-of-way. If anything is to be renegotiated or rethought as a compromise between both sides it's the Murray alignment. If the Bloor-Danforth can be routed up the Stouffville corridor and LRT fans still complain, I'll be convinced that there's just no reasoning to be had.

I recall TTC was not happy with the Murray alignment. Although one never knows if they were pressured to this opinion by City Council.
The Murray report states that 300m is the minimum radius, and 3.5% the maximum grade. I recall reading somewhere on "desirable" subway grades and curvatures. I couldn't find it, but I recall 450m radius and 2.5% grade. Looking at the Murray routing, there are 6 locations with 300 to 310m radius curves and 3 locations with 3% or more grade (actually 1 of those was only 2.994%). It could be that TTC can tolerate 1 or 2 locations less than desirable, but not below minimum, but not this many.

 

[OneCity]

This is the folly of some SSE advocates. There could be a plan to get a rapid transit station within a five minute walk of every resident in Scarborough, and they'd reject it if it necessitated a transfer at Kennedy, for the small subset of commuters that are travelling east of Kennedy

What? This is not true even if the built transit City in full. And It was getting cut back and SMLRT was unfunded when it was cancelled. And against the beliefs we wouldn't even build the Eglinton East LRT with the savings if we went back and that's without the delays and inflation. The LRT EA is not longer valid.

There is no reason the subway shouldn't have been proposed on the RT corridor or the LRT connecting to Eglinton from day one. Either one is an improvement in integration. There is no reason the Sheppard subway shouldn't have been completed to SCC as a subway or find a way to modify the stub to LRT or get a different vehicle.

Transit City was a poorly integrated plan with solid coverage. Unfortunately Integration matters to the City Centre and to small stubs of legacy plans. The subway will fix the integration and in the future local transit will be improved. That's what the people have voted for. Transit City and the RT died on its own details when called out. The subway can still be improved but that's about all there is to debate at this dragged out stage. Aside from debating Smarttrack at election I don't see the subway going back whatsoever

 

[Hopkins123]

So you would reject a 40+ station LRT network in favour of a 1 station subway?

That's not the choice the public is being forced to make though. There's a big difference between a stop and a station too. I wouldn't consider this:

To be on par with this:

You could build a zillion of the former and still not address the plight of large numbers of long-distance commuters trying to make crosstown trips in a timely manner.

 

[OneCity]

That's not the choice the public is being forced to make though. There's a big difference between a stop and a station too. I wouldn't consider this:

To be on par with this:

You could build a zillion of the former and still not address the plight of large numbers of long-distance commuters trying to make crosstown trips in a timely manner.

Funding 40 stops only came to fruition after the LRT was cancelled and the subway needed funding. The hatchett was already on the SMLRT and Sheppard. The people never had such a realistic offer. It was all LRT hopes and dreams while we were busy building subways to empty Vaughan Centre with an "debate on the merit of subway to Vaughan Centre thread" or media campaign to stop it. Such nonsense.

At this point If we want to actually help the people of Scarborough and move on. We build a proper subway with stops, finish what was started on Sheppard, improve local bus routes and complete the LRT we started on Eglinton when possible. Its that simple now. Otherwise well be debating and watching all the plans rise in cost. Yes it costs money and so does trying to change the game to save money and forcing transfer against the wishes of the better part of an area of close to 650,000 residents. That's just asking for it every time and cost will escalate each time its called out at some point.

That plan could never be overtuned by the people and we can move on together all paying for DRL's, and other LRT's across the City for decades to come without internal disruption. In the grand scheme of transit building, the capital savings of any lesser plan is insignificant.

 

[BurlOak]

This is the folly of some SSE advocates. There could be a plan to get a rapid transit station within a five minute walk of every resident in Scarborough, and they'd reject it if it necessitated a transfer at Kennedy, for the small subset of commuters that are travelling east of Kennedy

I think it was a pretty big subset of riders that went from STC to B-D and vice versa in the afternoon. I don't recall the number, but I would expect upwards of 10k ppdph once extended to Malvern.
Another problem with the transfer, and the current SSE plan, is that all riders are forced to take B-D to Yonge-Bloor. This station will get even worse.
If the DRL is built, only the small subset who are going to Queen will actually use it. All others will continue to use Y-B.

If the SRT was connected to ECLRT, then the load is better split between Yonge-Eglinton and Yonge-Bloor. If the DRL is built, then some of the Y-E transfers will switch to Don Mils/Eglinton.

I think the best is to have the SRT go all the way downtown. This way there is no transfer, no riders added to Yonge nor Y-B.