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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

Sure make a BRT if you want... surely its better then buses in mixed traffic. One of the benefits of the LRT was that people seem to enjoy riding on rails. It is a smoother ride which I don't know how anyone can argue with. Also the LRT would be substantially bigger than a bus which would mean less staff needed to drive buses plus more comfortable and modern vehicles. I do not mind a BRT but it sure seems like the cheap way of making a LRT. Personally though if I lived close to sheppard which I did when I was in Scarborough I would have preferred a LRT to Agincourt RER station versus a one stop subway to STC. When I lived in Scarborough people hated the spoke and wheel bus layout of the system but apparently everyone on here thinks its great. The system sucks in Mississauga as well that so many trips have to go through Square one even if its out of the way. But everyone on here is simply using "their opinion" or their experience... And the experts "are biased" and the media "are biased" and Steve Munro "is biased" so what can you do but leave transit planning to two brothers who never take transit and drive everywhere (sometimes under the influence). Clearly they know whats best.
 
Bit of whataboutism here.

That's a total cop-out.

SmartTrack/RER isn't just something I imagined for the sake of argument. It's a project that's been approved and is currently being planned.


And here's the thing, if you've lived in Scarborough for 10 or 20 or 30 years, you aren't likely to care about what else is being built, unless it impacts you. The fact that there hasn't been progress for 30 years, now makes them very likely to support politicians who say, "Enough is enough. We're building this come hell or high water."

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with it. But I absolutely understand where this sentiment comes from.

How does SmartTrack not fall under that definition?

Ignorance-based planning has been Scarborough's undoing for decades. Based on your reasoning, most people in Scarborough don't care about the SSE, certainly not the version they're getting.

You've suggested what Scarborough needs is commuter rail - that's exactly what it's getting. We can't pretend it simply doesn't count to improve the argument for a subway extension.

There's a reason why downtown bound transit is such a touchstone and nobody in Scarborough is clamouring for you to knock 5 mins off their bus ride. You can argue that it shouldn't be that way. But it is. People tend to value time in absolute return not relative. It's why very few people will care about what you can do for them inside Scarborough.

To begin with, I would argue that probably half of all riders (if I had to wag it) won't touch an LRT while traveling inside Scarborough. And then if they do, they may not be on there for a long enough distance to benefit more than a few minutes. Or they end up incurring an extra transfer to use an LRT. So with that in mind, the idea that LRT offers great benefit to 77% of transit users in Scarborough is a stretch.

And again, a lot of those benefits can be accrued by simply implementing bus lanes, bus priority, etc. Why is LRT specifically needed? If LRT runs at 25 kph average, and bus at 15 kph, why is it not possible to boost buses to 20 kph average by putting in bus lanes and signal priority? Moreover, bus lanes can be implemented in more corridors that are important to Scarborough itself (like Kennedy, McCowan, Vic Park), than the East-West corridors that are important city wide.

I agree that the subway won't do much to cut commute time. It's why I've argued that suburban rail needs to happen. But I suspect the comfort factor and cut of a transfer is playing a role in keeping the SSE attractive. And it's not going to get less attractive until RER is more than hypothetical.

But suburban rail is happening.

If we based transit planning on 'popular' sentiment nothing would ever get done. The St. Clair ROW had very vocal opposition - it was going to destroy business and ruin the area, etc. Now people love it and the area is booming. It's been a boon to passengers and business alike.

I also think we need to be honest about the support for the LRT. Most polls found support for either mode of transit split down the middle, with some even finding the LRT was preferred. It's not as though people are unanimously against it.

There is also a huge difference in what people claim they want and what actually works best for them. Everyone wants a subway - but once their RT stops are removed, there is greater bus reliance and a long transfer, people won't be very happy. We're already seeing signs that what politicans claim people want and what they actually want are two very different things.

Ultimately if a system works, people will use it - whether it's underground or not. People have a problem with streetcars when they're backed up, rammed, short turn, etc. When they run as intended, no one cares that they aren't subways.

I get it - some in Scarborough see a subway as the best form of transit and a true connection to the core. None of that will really matter though if it isn't effective. An RER/SmartTrack combination will get people to and from the core (and around Scarborough) far more effectively than removing their current RT stops in favour of a 6km subway extension.

Whether they're aware of it now or not, the end result is what counts.
 
Somehow the subways are effective for connecting all other parts of the city, but won't be effective for Scarborough.

What a misfortune.
 
It isn't if they will be effective or not. It is at what cost. Finite dollars means wise decisions need to be made. If we can move people from Scarborough downtown fastest by RER we should be investing our limited funds there. If we want to do more than we should make getting to those stations as easy as possible. So if Kennedy RER, Lawrence RER and Agincourt RER are going to be a thing then I would suggest we should put a LRT on Eglinton east, Lawrence East, and Sheppard east so that the last mile to ones house is as good as possible eliminating the need of giant kiss and rides.
 
Finite dollars spent on the fully grade-separated SLRT, that costs a lot and still doesn't eliminate the transfer, is not necessarily a very wise decision. Although, it would work if built back in 200x.

Abandoning the years already put in the subway design and going back to the drawing board for SLRT, is a lot worse than building SLRT 10 years ago. People who propose that, are just trying to take revenge on Scarberians for rejecting the SLRT plan back then.

Regarding the RER + feeder LRT lines plan, I won't deny that it has appeal, in principle. However, we know that RER as currently planned will not have enough capacity to serve all riders from Scarborough who currently use SRT (or express bus) to reach Subway Line 2 at Kennedy. Either we still need "something" that connects STC and Kennedy Stn to serve those riders, or we need to dramatically enhance RER and invest a lot in the Union rail corridor to achieve that.

So, the RER alternative is a bird in the sky, while SSE is a practical option.
 
I don't think that's the case at all ("are just trying to take revenge") I think the bigger concern is that we don't spend all our money here that there wont be anything left and we will see constant delays for the DRL. It wont matter if Scarborough has a direct connection if there is no DRL at pape to help alleviate the stress at yonge.

Also I don't understand how it was acceptable for people to basically make false lies to derail the fully funded, contract signed SLRT (it isn't grade separated according to our former best mayor ever) years ago but today we are simply supposed to go ahead because somehow we have crossed an imaginary line of no return. Or is it that the line of no return only exists when it is in alignment with ones preferred plan.
 
Somehow the subways are effective for connecting all other parts of the city, but won't be effective for Scarborough.

50 to 60km of rapid transit expansion would be effective for Scarborough. I'm not willing to wait until 2070 for random piecemeal subway expansions before transit in Scarborough is usable. They can use something much sooner BUT the people of Scarborough largely aren't aware that $5B can build something more than the extension proposed; they seem content to wait 2 more generations for something useful.

20 year olds in Scarborough shouldn't need to be thinking about improving their grandkids commute; they should be improving their own future commute.


The modal split in 2030 will confirm SSE had essentially zero impact as modal split for Scarborough will be roughly unchanged (relative to the rest of the city) making it the 2nd time Scarborough has been tricked into taking an expensive but incomplete solution.

Sheppard won't do much either when/if it opens around 2040.
 
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I don't think that's the case at all ("are just trying to take revenge") I think the bigger concern is that we don't spend all our money here that there wont be anything left and we will see constant delays for the DRL. It wont matter if Scarborough has a direct connection if there is no DRL at pape to help alleviate the stress at yonge.

Also I don't understand how it was acceptable for people to basically make false lies to derail the fully funded, contract signed SLRT (it isn't grade separated according to our former best mayor ever) years ago but today we are simply supposed to go ahead because somehow we have crossed an imaginary line of no return. Or is it that the line of no return only exists when it is in alignment with ones preferred plan.

It isn't if they will be effective or not. It is at what cost. Finite dollars means wise decisions need to be made. If we can move people from Scarborough downtown fastest by RER we should be investing our limited funds there. If we want to do more than we should make getting to those stations as easy as possible. So if Kennedy RER, Lawrence RER and Agincourt RER are going to be a thing then I would suggest we should put a LRT on Eglinton east, Lawrence East, and Sheppard east so that the last mile to ones house is as good as possible eliminating the need of giant kiss and rides.

As you and @rbt have pointed out, it actually isn't the most effective means and certainly doesn't provide value for the dollar.

That's the worst part - all things considered it's less effective than what's currently in place.

I know I'll miss taking advantage of the stops that currently exist.
 
Finite dollars

Dollars aren't finite. It's entirely a function of how much people are willing to spend. Toronto could easily fund the construction of several LRT lines while leaving subway expansion to the province. And it's lookin likely that this is the direction things are going.
 
I don't see how you interpret that after we had ford who was all about stopping the gravy train, tory won't raise taxes more than inflation, and Doug keeps cutting tax revenue. All three have suggested they are pro subways subways subways but none of them have a realistic plan to pay for them.
 
I don't see how you interpret that after we had ford who was all about stopping the gravy train, tory won't raise taxes more than inflation, and Doug keeps cutting tax revenue. All three have suggested they are pro subways subways subways but none of them have a realistic plan to pay for them.

In all fairness, Rob Ford wasn't in power long enough to implement any of his vision before the petty idiot council stripped him of his authority. For all we know three subways to Scarborough could've been under construction or nearing finalization by this point if not for the Stintz coup detat.
 
Was he going to increase taxes in 4 years the equivalent amount of 30.... because I fail to see how his dream was possible. I was more likely to put a ferris wheel in my backyard then he was of fulfilling his vision.
 
50 to 60km of rapid transit expansion would be effective for Scarborough. I'm not willing to wait until 2070 for random piecemeal subway expansions before transit in Scarborough is usable. They can use something much sooner BUT the people of Scarborough largely aren't aware that $5B can build something more than the extension proposed; they seem content to wait 2 more generations for something useful.

20 year olds in Scarborough shouldn't need to be thinking about improving their grandkids commute; they should be improving their own future commute.

The modal split in 2030 will confirm SSE had essentially zero impact as modal split for Scarborough will be roughly unchanged (relative to the rest of the city) making it the 2nd time Scarborough has been tricked into taking an expensive but incomplete solution.

Sheppard won't do much either when/if it opens around 2040.

But we still need a high-capacity line to connect STC to Kennedy Station.

Btw, I am not in favor of building both SSE and the Sheppard subway. That would be an overkill; I'd rather invest in feeder lines connecting the SSE terminus to the north and east of Scarborough.
 

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