Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

If you take those options, expect to spend over 1.5 hrs getting to your destination. I’ve taken 2 hrs from Morningside Heights to Union. This is what gets annoying. And why I remain steadfast that suburban rail is really needed in the GTA.

I agree.

The SSE, unfortunately, is not suburban rail.

And it’s hard to take LRT proponents seriously when their entire knowledge of our commutes is based off trip planners and Google maps which somehow never works out quite as well IRL.

That's where you'd be completely wrong.

I'm not an LRT proponent - I'm a proponent of transit expansion that makes sense.

I live in the city, travel all around it, and don't have a car. Transit is all I use.

I'm very, very familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Scarborough. I'm also familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Rexdale. I believe in the other SSE thread an SSE proponent suggested Rexdale transit riders are 'spoiled' relative to those who live in Scarborough. The reason I use Google map estimates is because they're standardized and can provide some actual perspective beyond make believe numbers from a poster who is prone to making things up.

Travel times for those 'spoiled' people in Rexdale are the same for the poor oppressed people of Scarborough. Does the estimated travel time differ from actual travel time on many occassions? Of course. But that's true for everyone, not just those living in Scarborough. Transit times downtown for those actually living in the city can be awful and uncomfortable. I recall a ride of nearly an hour from King & Bay to King & Dufferin, on packed streetcars (how often does the RT short turn?). That's not even a 4km trip.

I was in Scarborough this weekend, and we had a brief transit discussion - the idea of eliminating RT stops didn't sit well with people at all, who assumed the subway would somehow complement or replace that level of accessibility.

Unfortunately for many SSE proponents an honest and broad ranging discussion about transit isn't of interest, nor is addressing the reality that the SSE will make commutes worse for a lot of Scarberians and will do very, very little to improve that trip downtown.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I agree.

The SSE, unfortunately, is not suburban rail.



That's where you'd be completely wrong.

I'm not an LRT proponent - I'm a proponent of transit expansion that makes sense.

I live in the city, travel all around it, and don't have a car. Transit is all I use.

I'm very, very familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Scarborough. I'm also familiar with the experience of traveling to and within Rexdale. I believe in the other SSE thread a SSE proponent suggested Rexdale transit riders are 'spoiled' relative to those who live in Scarborough. The reason I use Google map estimates is because they're standardized and can provide some actual perspective beyond make believe numbers from a poster who is prone to making things up.

Travel times for those 'spoiled' people in Rexdale are the same for the poor oppressed people of Scarborough. Does the estimated travel time differ from actual travel time on many occassions? Of course. But that's true for everyone, not just those living in Scarborough. Transit times downtown for those actually living in the city can be awful and uncomfortable. I recall a ride of nearly an hour from King & Bay to King & Dufferin, on packed streetcars (how often does the RT short turn?). That's not even a 4km trip.

I was in Scarborough this weekend, and we had a brief transit discussion - the idea of eliminating RT stops didn't sit well with people at all, who assumed the subway would somehow complement or replace that level of accessibility.

Unfortunately for many SSE proponents and honest and broad ranging discussion about transit isn't of interest, nor is addressing the reality that the SSE will make commutes worse for a lot of Scarberians and will do very, very little to improve that trip downtown.

Why downtown? What about the Ontario Science Centre or the Toronto Zoo or a shopping mall or the doctor's office or school (including post-secondary)? They are not all downtown. We need rapid transit ACROSS the city, not just to get to and from downtown. Having a one or three station subway will not do that. We need multi-stop rapid transit, which would include light rail, subways, and commuter trains... and buses that are not blocked from moving by single-occupant automobiles.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why downtown? What about the Ontario Science Centre or the Toronto Zoo or a shopping mall or the doctor's office or school (including post-secondary)? They are not all downtown. We need rapid transit ACROSS the city, not just to get to and from downtown. Having a one or three station subway will not do that. We need multi-stop rapid transit, which would include light rail, subways, and commuter trains... and buses that are not blocked from moving by single-occupant automobiles.

Blasphemy! You must be one of the Elite! Doug (The Cambodian) Ford will smite you...only the educated go to see "the Ontario Science Centre or the Toronto Zoo". I'd be very careful with those activities if I were you. Just drink 'buck a beer' and fit in. Perhaps culture a beer-belly too to ape the fashion of the Pol Pot Glorious Leader.

 

[OneCity]

Why downtown? What about the Ontario Science Centre or the Toronto Zoo or a shopping mall or the doctor's office or school (including post-secondary)? They are not all downtown. We need rapid transit ACROSS the city, not just to get to and from downtown. Having a one or three station subway will not do that. We need multi-stop rapid transit, which would include light rail, subways, and commuter trains... and buses that are not blocked from moving by single-occupant automobiles.

You must be very mislead about the state of our bus network and express buses feeding the subway and rail out here. Our buses are rarely blocked anywhere east of Kennedy and are quite efficient so long as we don't remove vehicle lanes for the sake of it, the LRT would have created an unnecessary problem with traffic congestion. More importantly LRT was not being built as "rapid transit". It was adding transfers, removing vehicle lanes on major arterials and mixing directly in with traffic with almost no grade separation.

Look at the EELRT. The only reason I can support the line is for revitalizing tired areas, otherwise its not actually improving commutes for East end transit riders compared to our current very solid bus service, and its making vehicle driving worse on Eglinton (already has a dedicated lane) and Kingston rd which will lose a couple lanes. The SSE to the future BRT on Ellesmere will be more efficient to UTSC then EELRT. But yes if they want to continue to build vanity projects and called it "evidence based" so be it. Atleast this line isn't adding new transfers or cutting off our Centre.

A 3 stop SSE will be more efficient than the SLRT in both connectivity off our Core, providing a more central connection and the main hospital connection (as you seem concerned with hitting "key" locations" RER will help address the direct downtown commutes, and our bus network is more than adequate and can be converted to BRT or even properly implemented LRT when actually required. The subway could have been built cheaper than the current, RER would have open the gates Downtown if more station added and better fare structure as well as provided redundancy and a little bit of BRT and well integrated LRT was all that was required.

Transit City looked nice on a map when transfers and design details were hidden. In actuality it was a plan based on a mispalced ideology over actual need, and weve paid dearly to say the least.

 

[W. K. Lis]

... It was adding transfers, removing vehicle lanes on major arterials and mixing directly in with traffic with almost no grade separation....

"Vehicle" lanes as in single-occupant vehicles?

 

[BurlOak]

I still think the best option for Scarborough was a diagonal line running from Malvarn.

First I thought to (and along) Eglinton, but since I have been pushing following the Don Valley all the way downtown.


I would like to find a better way to get down to the Gatineau Hydro corridor. Either along Midland or along Midwest Road (half way between Midland and the Rail corridor), but there's a group of townhouses just south of Ellesmere that will give trouble. It would need a connection to the GO RER at Ellesmere or Lawrence (since the line does not go down to Kennedy/Eglinton.

 

[OneCity]

"Vehicle" lanes as in single-occupant vehicles?

Cute graphic. But as I said the LRT in the form it was proposed did nothing to get those people in vehicles where they needed to go any better. Only made matters worse and wasn't even helping the one who use public transit already all that much.

Also these are not "downtown" roads on Sheppard, Eglinton and Kingston rd they are feeder arterials in addition to local routes. Exactly why @kEiThZ continually points out the priority that was ignored and would actually taken passenger out of vehicles.

 

[sixrings]

So in the suburbs where there's more than enough room for LRT in its own lane that it still doesn't make sense? So I guess it's subways or busses for this city because where LRTs make sense (easily they fit and are affordable enough to be built in bulk) the people spoken for by OneCity doesn't want them.

 

[steveintoronto]

Gotta love this:

You must be very mislead about the state of our bus network and express buses feeding the subway and rail out here. Our buses are rarely blocked anywhere east of Kennedy and are quite efficient so long as we don't remove vehicle lanes for the sake of it,

One of your sycophants in these fora is claiming it takes an hour and a half riding on the bus to get to a subway or GO station in Scarborough.

 

[Hopkins123]

Getting from Malvern Town Centre to Yonge Station requires a grand total of one bus (along with a subway ride).

Traveling from Morningside & Old Finch to Yonge & Bloor also only requires one bus. There are two options, both of which go directly to a subway station.

Again, your post is total nonsense.

This is why so many can't take the SSE lobby seriously - the 'justifications' peddled are based on fiction, fiction that completely ignores the experience and needs of others. Facts are few and far between.

Personal responsibility plays a role in using public transit. If someone misses their bus, they need to be accountable for that. It's not hard to find schedules online, nor is it difficult for anyone with a smartphone to download an app which will show them where their bus is, in real time. The same is true for anyone, anywhere in the city.

Finally, the SSE will not change the fact that a bus ride will be necessary. In fact, the elimination of rapid transit stops will dramatically increase the reliance on the bus, and actually makes for a longer subway transfer.

I love how "the needs and experiences of others" are held up as sacrosanct yet mine are dismissed as "fiction" and "total nonsense" as if I am incapable of determining the distance and time duration I'm traveling while aboard these routes for myself. If you think an hour on the Finch bus from Morningside and Old Finch to Yonge and Finch followed by a 25 minute ride on the subway to Union Stn is normal and acceptable, then it is you who is sputtering total nonsense.

That you'd trivialize such a long bus commute and desire not to bring the subway network closer to eastern Scarborough (which anyone can plainly see is the most cut-off area from real rapid transit) makes you and your ilk part of the problem, not solution.

 

[steveintoronto]

I love how "the needs and experiences of others" are held up as sacrosanct yet mine are dismissed as "fiction" and "total nonsense" as if I am incapable of determining the distance and time duration I'm traveling while aboard these routes for myself. If you think an hour on the Finch bus from Morningside and Old Finch to Yonge and Finch followed by a 25 minute ride on the subway to Union Stn is normal and acceptable, then it is you who is sputtering total nonsense.

That you'd trivialize such a long bus commute and desire not to bring the subway network closer to eastern Scarborough (which anyone can plainly see is the most cut-off area from real rapid transit) makes you and your ilk part of the problem, not solution.

You must be very mislead about the state of our bus network and express buses feeding the subway and rail out here. Our buses are rarely blocked anywhere east of Kennedy and are quite efficient so long as we don't remove vehicle lanes for the sake of it...

Bus-ted.

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree.

The SSE, unfortunately, is not suburban rail.

Νο. It isn’t. And instead of proposing suburban rail, the only alternative ever offered is LRT. Even now. There isn’t a single mayoral candidate saying, “We really need to change the transit system so that we can cut commute times to the core.”

And worse, somehow subway technology has become short hand for a whole lot of political symbolism. Conservatives are supposed to support subways. And progressives are supposed to support LRT. Rider convenience and system effectiveness be damned. Your supposed to pick your tech or politics and bundle it.

I was in Scarborough this weekend, and we had a brief transit discussion - the idea of eliminating RT stops didn't sit well with people at all, who assumed the subway would somehow complement or replace that level of accessibility.

The one-stop subway? Absolutely. Were it to include at Lawrence East or another stop before or after, I’d argue a net benefit.

Very little ridership is walk in. Especially at Midland, McCowan and Ellesmere. And most of those feeder bus riders will be less than 5 mins away from SC or Lawrence or Kennedy.

Unfortunately for many SSE proponents an honest and broad ranging discussion about transit isn't of interest, nor is addressing the reality that the SSE will make commutes worse for a lot of Scarberians and will do very, very little to improve that trip downtown.

SSE proponents are guilty of looking ahead to the addition of more stops and over promising the effects of the one-stop subway. And LRT proponents are guilty of presenting a few minutes of savings over a bus as some vast improvement in the transit experience.

If either side were truly acting out of some concern for Scarborough residents, both sides would be admitting that neither solution is appropriate for downtown bound commuters.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why downtown? What about the Ontario Science Centre or the Toronto Zoo or a shopping mall or the doctor's office or school (including post-secondary)? They are not all downtown. We need rapid transit ACROSS the city, not just to get to and from downtown. Having a one or three station subway will not do that. We need multi-stop rapid transit, which would include light rail, subways, and commuter trains... and buses that are not blocked from moving by single-occupant automobiles.

Because the longest and most frequent trips we undertake are drivers for planning. How often does someone go to the Science Centre or Toronto Zoo?

And nobody is going to be all that concerned off the 20% you save them on their 25 min bus commute inside Scarborough. Saving them 20% on their 1.5 hr commute from Morningside and Finch to Union? That’s a noticeable difference.

I absolutely agree that cross-town travel should be improved. That was the thesis behind the Sheppard subway, as I recall. It’s unfortunate that this city can’t see through a plan once they actually start it. So now, we could well have bus, then LRT, then subway, then bus, all on the same corridor.

 

[kEiThZ]

If you think an hour on the Finch bus from Morningside and Old Finch to Yonge and Finch followed by a 25 minute ride on the subway to Union Stn is normal

This brings up a great point. Never understood why Steeles West was picked. LRT on Finch across the city would have done so much more. Heck, put it in the hydro corridor, and it’s practically a light metro akin to what Ottawa did with their LRT. That would have been a project the whole northern half of the city could get behind.

 

[sixrings]

Other than wider stop spacing The real time savings of a lrt comes at rush hour when there’s bumper to bumper traffic and the lrt is in its own lane. I don’t know how this detail can be marginalized. Countless times I have sat in traffic so frustrated transit didn’t have its own lane. The lrt offers that yet people act like it’s relatively trivial.