Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

^ However, I don't mind if they simply extend SSE to Sheppard, for better connectivity with buses coming from the north.

By the time design is complete on Sheppard and politicians kick the ball 10 to 20 years will fly by. Its politically inevitable this line will be built, even Jen Keesmaat was afraid to put LRT on her map but acknowledges the connection. Extending he SSE to Sheppard may allow the is line by toyed with for longer, which inevitably mean raising costs thru inflation for something inevitable. IMO it should be in a que with the DRL long in the lines that follow the current three in design

 

[Neutrino]

@OneCity Out of curiosity, will the SSE improve your commute?

 

[OneCity]

@OneCity Out of curiosity, will the SSE improve your commute?

No.

The current SSE won't improve my commute in anyway. The stop neutering removed massive chunks of benefit away for many commuters in key areas except it provided us with an economic boost to the Centre. This boost didnt need to be this extravagant but is certainly a major factor that was overlooked in Transit City.

Add the Lawrence stop and I absolutely benefit as I go across to the west side of the City on the BDL a couple times a week. We'd also be connecting our General hospital which is also being undervalued. Add Sheppard stop to my old stomping grounds in Malvern and the benefit grows.

If were building on the current McCowan alignment stops need to be added to recieve all the benefits this corridor could provide if was planned properly

Neither the Transit City LRT or the one stop subway should have ever been tabled. Seamless LRT to SCC or BDL extension on RT alignment were obvious choices to provide greater benefit for less cost when changing technology. Transfer LRT and 1 stop subways both missed the mark.

 

[sixrings]

Years ago people argued against transit city claiming it was more about gentrification then transit. Today the same people argue that the one stop subway (less stops which doesn't help them transit wise and costs more) support it because it will create an "economic boost to the centre." That makes sense.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Years ago people argued against transit city claiming it was more about gentrification then transit. Today the same people argue that the one stop subway (less stops which doesn't help them transit wise and costs more) support it because it will create an "economic boost to the centre." That makes sense.

Except most people here don't actually support the 1 stop extension in this present stage, especially since there are absolutely no measures being taken to rough in stations at Lawrence East and Brimley. Most of us support the subway in Scarborough for other reasons. Some perpetuate the argument of densification along corridors, but that is mainly to satisfy Transit City enthusiasts. I myself don't mind the prospect of Transit City lines, I just believe half the corridors they chose for them (SLRT replacement, Don Mills, Eglinton, and Sheppard) were awful choices and would be better served by other technologies. SRT for transfer reasons and a single line Eglinton East-crosstown line, Don Mills because of Relief Line North, Eglinton because of the High Ridership, and Sheppard because we don't know where RLN will terminate, and we don't know how ridership will react on that corridor for another decade or two, not enough time for an LRT to be valuable.

Finch, Jane, Lawrence, Steeles, Waterfront all made sense for transit city style LRT, but most were shelved for strange reasons.

 

[Neutrino]

Strange reasons = lack of funding no?

 

[syn]

Except most people here don't actually support the 1 stop extension in this present stage, especially since there are absolutely no measures being taken to rough in stations at Lawrence East and Brimley. Most of us support the subway in Scarborough for other reasons. Some perpetuate the argument of densification along corridors, but that is mainly to satisfy Transit City enthusiasts. I myself don't mind the prospect of Transit City lines, I just believe half the corridors they chose for them (SLRT replacement, Don Mills, Eglinton, and Sheppard) were awful choices and would be better served by other technologies. SRT for transfer reasons and a single line Eglinton East-crosstown line, Don Mills because of Relief Line North, Eglinton because of the High Ridership, and Sheppard because we don't know where RLN will terminate, and we don't know how ridership will react on that corridor for another decade or two, not enough time for an LRT to be valuable.

Finch, Jane, Lawrence, Steeles, Waterfront all made sense for transit city style LRT, but most were shelved for strange reasons.

Why?

How does an LRT make sense for Jane and not for Eglinton nor Sheppard nor the Scarborough RT? Ridership figures indicate an LRT would be the perfect transit infrastructure for Scarborough.

There are many people who'd argue that an LRT would be a very difficult fit for much of Jane (unless of course it was buried).

 

[syn]

Strange reasons = lack of funding no?

I wonder where all the funding went...

 

[Streety McCarface]

Why?

How does an LRT make sense for Jane and not for Eglinton nor Sheppard nor the Scarborough RT? Ridership figures indicate an LRT would be the perfect transit infrastructure for Scarborough.

There are many people who'd argue that an LRT would be a very difficult fit for much of Jane (unless of course it was buried).

A subway makes more sense for Eglinton, based on existing ridership and ridership potential, especially when you consider that they just built a subway to Vaughan (underground on top of it).

Sheppard is wide enough to support BRT for the time being, and ridership isn't as bad as finch or jane so it makes complete sense. Since there is already a subway on sheppard, it makes no sense to make a transfer permanent while ridership in the future along the corridor may warrant a subway, especially when relief line north comes into the picture. Also, Relief line north itself might terminate at Leslie or victoria park, so a sheppard east extension may be necessary in the future, so it makes sense to wait and see what city plans are before making an arrangement permanent and regretting the decision 5-10 years later.

The scarborough RT should either stay as an RT or be turned into a subway, and I've already explained why. The LFLRT option along this corridor makes matters worse for everyone (longer boarding times, longer platforms, need for expensive replacements, RT down for years, does not increase speed, longer boarding times).

With Jane, certain sections (as are most of downtown transit lines) could be made into streetcar or streetcar-priority lines to make everyone happy (or at least meet everyone's needs). I don't necessarily like that solution but it's much better than the bus given the ridership on that line. One could also make the lines ROW without platforms on the street (ie, have people cross the road as they do with existing streetcars). More work needs to be done to determine the feasibility and the best option, but an LRT could certainly work.

 

[OneCity]

Strange reasons = lack of funding no?

Strange reasons: Prioritizing the lines that can road block the potential subway routes to SCC from pro Downtown admin under Miller.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Strange reasons = lack of funding no?

I wonder where all the funding went...

I think we all know that their estimations for the transit city LRTs were vastly understated. 400-500M a line? Come on, we all know that's a load of horsesh!t. The city can't even pay its 700M share for the subway, how would we be able to pay for any of the other lines?

That's not to say we can't pay for the studies. When I mentioned that the projects were shelved, I was referring to the lack of funding for the studies (aka, Ford's hatred of trams).

 

[Neutrino]

Yeah that's what I meant as well. Even without SSE, Toronto would struggle to build all those LRT lines. Not saying anything about their utility. I think it's abundantly clear that some of the suburban bus routes would do well to be converted to LRT.

 

[BurlOak]

A subway makes more sense for Eglinton, based on existing ridership and ridership potential, especially when you consider that they just built a subway to Vaughan (underground on top of it).

Eglinton "subway" should have been elevated through Don Valley and Golden Mile.
Now maybe B-D subway should be extended to Kingston Road.

 

[syn]

I think we all know that their estimations for the transit city LRTs were vastly understated. 400-500M a line? Come on, we all know that's a load of horsesh!t. The city can't even pay its 700M share for the subway, how would we be able to pay for any of the other lines?

That's not to say we can't pay for the studies. When I mentioned that the projects were shelved, I was referring to the lack of funding for the studies (aka, Ford's hatred of trams).

Those estimates are also over 10 years old.

$540 million for the Waterfront West line seemed reasonable.

Funding for the lines was going to be provided by three levels of government.

I believe the Eglinton LRT is being paid for entirely by the province.

Even if the estimates were off, these lines provided a lot more value than the alternative.

 

[syn]

In all fairness, Rob Ford wasn't in power long enough to implement any of his vision before the petty idiot council stripped him of his authority. For all we know three subways to Scarborough could've been under construction or nearing finalization by this point if not for the Stintz coup detat.

You mean the 'vision' of building subways paid for by the private sector? His absurd cost estimates ($4 billion total for the SSE and Sheppard Subway extension)?

The 'petty idiot council' that stripped an international embarrassment of a mayor who was completely unfit to lead?

Rob Ford had no plan. His biggest accomplishment was delaying sensible transit expansion by at least a decade.