Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

Those estimates are also over 10 years old.

$540 million for the Waterfront West line seemed reasonable.

Funding for the lines was going to be provided by three levels of government.

I believe the Eglinton LRT is being paid for entirely by the province.

Even if the estimates were off, these lines provided a lot more value than the alternative.

Forget 10 years old. Those estimates went out of date immediately. They vastly underestimated them.

They estimated 15 years and $6 billion to construct all the LRT lines:
https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/03/17/success_driven_by_ttc_miller.html

Eglinton alone went from an estimate of $2.2 billion to $4.6 billion in just 3 years:
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4121.shtml

My only question is whether that gap between initial and detailed estimates was a result of intention or incompetence.

 

[syn]

Forget 10 years old. Those estimates went out of date immediately. They vastly underestimated them.

They estimated 15 years and $6 billion to construct all the LRT lines:
https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/03/17/success_driven_by_ttc_miller.html

Eglinton alone went from an estimate of $2.2 billion to $4.6 billion in just 3 years:
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4121.shtml

My only question is whether that gap between initial and detailed estimates was a result of intention or incompetence.

Probably both.

Kind of like how far off every Ford/Tory transit estimate has been.

 

[Hopkins123]

You mean the 'vision' of building subways paid for by the private sector? His absurd cost estimates ($4 billion total for the SSE and Sheppard Subway extension)?

The 'petty idiot council' that stripped an international embarrassment of a mayor who was completely unfit to lead?

Rob Ford had no plan. His biggest accomplishment was delaying sensible transit expansion by at least a decade.

Easy to talk tough behind the anonymity of a computer screen about a dead man with years of leftist media spin on his mayoralty emboldening you. Facts are facts. You just cited some. Ford had a plan. P3s seem to work everywhere else on the planet but magically would have failed here because "stuff" apparently. Council should have done more to facilitate those plans rather than be preoccupied with their own mayoral ambitions and pounced on the first sign of weakness.

 

[syn]

Rob Ford did not propose P3s. In fact, he suggested the entire Sheppard extension would be privately funded with no taxpayer contributions.

Why would council pursue a plan that had no chance of working? Why would they follow the lead of a man that exhibited clear homophobic tendencies, and was clearly unfit for the job?

 

[sixrings]

Pretty sure people don't mind being public about their distaste for Fords dead or alive.

 

[Neutrino]

Homophobic tendencies lol

 

[Voltz]

Easy to talk tough behind the anonymity of a computer screen about a dead man with years of leftist media spin on his mayoralty emboldening you. Facts are facts. You just cited some. Ford had a plan. P3s seem to work everywhere else on the planet but magically would have failed here because "stuff" apparently. Council should have done more to facilitate those plans rather than be preoccupied with their own mayoral ambitions and pounced on the first sign of weakness.

The only thing Rob Ford new about transit was how to say the word Subways three times in a row. He knew nothing, and was delusional enough to claim that a consortium of international investors was just banging down his door and clamouring to just give the city billions for the Sheppard Subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Would connecting Sheppard line to Bloor Line through STC make sense?

I mean that until the city decides on what to extend east of STC, have those 2 lines connected. That would mean the terminus of the east end of the Bloor line would be Sheepard-Yonge.

IMO, that should not be a priority for the next 20 to 30 years.

Cons:
1) The cost of extending Sheppard Subway will be very substantial, to the tune of $4B or $5B. Would be better spent on the Relief Line and then on Yonge North.
2) If the two lines are integrated, additional costs will be incurred on the Sheppard line: running 6-car trains instead of 4-car, and possibly the need to install ATO.
3) The integrated line will be longer, thus more prune to delays in one section that affect the rest of the line.

I see only one benefit: the STC station would effectively work for both lines, eliminating the need to build another pair of platforms with escalators etc. That's not insignificant, perhaps $200 to $300 million in savings, but hardly worth spending another $4+ billion.

^ However, I don't mind if they simply extend SSE to Sheppard, for better connectivity with buses coming from the north.

The plan is to connect at STC. Sheppard-McCowan means another Bus Terminal has to be built.

 

[sixrings]

The plan is to connect at STC. Sheppard-McCowan means another Bus Terminal has to be built.

Why couldn't the people simply walk off the bus at sheppard and Mccowan into the station. There is all sorts of subway stations without bus terminals. I don't know why we need to rebuild terminal 1 at every subway stop in suburbia.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why couldn't the people simply walk off the bus at sheppard and Mccowan into the station. There is all sorts of subway stations without bus terminals. I don't know why we need to rebuild terminal 1 at every subway stop in suburbia.

Because they want a seamless transfer, and not having the buses stopped on the street.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Because they want a seamless transfer, and not having the buses stopped on the street.

What happened if the rough street transfer takes less time than the seamless bus terminal transfer?

 

[sixrings]

What happened if the rough street transfer takes less time than the seamless bus terminal transfer?

maybe the transfer can include a 400m walk

 

[syn]

Perhaps we can design a new modular bus? When it arrives at it's destination each seat will separate Transformer style and take riders directly to the door/train without the need for walking. It will then reassemble at the departure area once it's individual drop-offs are complete.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What happened if the rough street transfer takes less time than the seamless bus terminal transfer?

maybe the transfer can include a 400m walk

I don't know. I think, like with the subway, people have their minds set on one goal.

 

[pstogios]

Perhaps we can design a new modular bus? When it arrives at it's destination each seat will separate Transformer style and take riders directly to the door/train without the need for walking. It will then reassemble at the departure area once it's individual drop-offs are complete.

Maybe this would appease the Scarborough snowflakes.