Palma
Senior Member
Its amazing but when there is a push not to build a subway, the costs given out are approx $300M+ for each station, yet when there is a push for subway its $180M per station.
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Its amazing but when there is a push not to build a subway, the costs given out are approx $300M+ for each station, yet when there is a push for subway its $180M per station.
Rainforest
Senior Member
That's true, and the station and Eglinton & Danforth would be very useful.
However, one can understand Tory's position. Scarborough subway isn't his top priority; SmartTrack is. Tory realizes that a reopened Scarborough subway debate will create a distraction from his SmartTrack efforts. Therefore, he wants to change as little as possible in that subway project.
In fact, I expect him to take a similar position on Finch and Sheppard LRT lines: he will support them as planned, and resist changes.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I guess, it really depends on the kind of station. A regular station without a bus terminal may cost $100 to $150 million, whereas a station with many bus bays may be in the $200 to $300 million range (examples are Yonge & Steeles, or Sheppard & Vic Park).
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I know I've been a negative nancy lately, but I'm confident that Toronto has a bright transit future ahead of it. I'm just getting real tired of the politics of it and politician consistently peddling the most expensive and least workable options:
The last rapid transit extension was more than 10 years ago... a $1 Billion hole in the ground that nobody uses.
We're building a subway to Vaughan with pathetically low ridership. Yay.
Rob Ford has convinced Scarborough that they somehow "deserve" a $3.5 Billion ego stroker (err... I mean subway... no I didn't), and nobody seems to give a damn that it's ridership will be just about as low as Spadina and almost as bad as pathetic Sheppard. But it gives Scarborough The Feels, so we better build it.
The $5 Billion Eglinton Line is coming along. The thing moves only 5,400 persons per hour (that's just slightly about Sheppard, for reference), but I'll throw my support behind it considering that there are literally no other alternatives and that the line, as designed, is the cheapest way to make it work.
We just elected a "fiscally conservative" mayor who wants to build a subway on Eglinton West, whilst there are available rail corridors immediately north. Because if anywhere needs a subway, it's Eglinton West, right? And ever notice how those who claim to be fiscally conservative always find the best ways to burn cash? ugh.
This same mayor refuses to commit to supporting the one of two upcoming subway projects that without a doubt makes sense, the Relief Line.
We have councillors, again, trying to derail Sheppard and Finch transit.
Bombardier is incompetent.
The only two upcoming subway projects that make any sense to build whatsoever, Yonge North and Relief Line, appear to be more or less dead last on the priority list. Because, you know, hell would sooner freeze over than Toronto would make a rapid transit decision that makes an iota of sense.
On the upside, we have RER, so yay. New signalling system will be on Line 1, eventually. The Eglinton Crosstown will be open in 5 years. Union Station looks pretty. Leslie Barns is nearly done. The bendy busses are cool. Mr. Byford is doing a great job, considering the cards he's been dealt with.
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jeffreym
Active Member
What are the odds that the SRT will fall apart beyond repair and have to be abandoned before any replacement is built given that 2015 has long been stated as its end of life?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That just shows how much he loves our city.
It's that obvious, eh?
This city does consume my thoughts a lot. I only want the best for it
quicksilver
Active Member
Does De Baeremaeker lose his .25 Deputy Mayor position?
Fellow TTC Commissioner Shelley Carroll said that she didn’t think De Baeremaeker’s plan would get far, given the lack of support from the mayor’s office — and she suggested that in fact his role as one of four deputy mayors was not as influential on transit matters as that.
“I don’t know that Glenn (de Baereamaeker) is (Mayor Tory’s) point man — he has staff people to be his point man,” said Carroll. “There is a learning curve and Glenn may have to learn that if he’s going to be on the TTC and work with the mayor, that freelancing is not a good idea. He should be talking to the mayor’s staff, because the mayor does have people in charge of developing a good SmartTrack plan and making sure it complements our good TTC plans. He would be better off talking to them than freelancing to the media.”
InsideToronto
Fellow TTC Commissioner Shelley Carroll said that she didn’t think De Baeremaeker’s plan would get far, given the lack of support from the mayor’s office — and she suggested that in fact his role as one of four deputy mayors was not as influential on transit matters as that.
“I don’t know that Glenn (de Baereamaeker) is (Mayor Tory’s) point man — he has staff people to be his point man,” said Carroll. “There is a learning curve and Glenn may have to learn that if he’s going to be on the TTC and work with the mayor, that freelancing is not a good idea. He should be talking to the mayor’s staff, because the mayor does have people in charge of developing a good SmartTrack plan and making sure it complements our good TTC plans. He would be better off talking to them than freelancing to the media.”
InsideToronto
BMO
Senior Member
Could that be?....Could it possibly be?....No it can't be....Another person that supports the Yonge North Extension apart from me
*tears of joy*
A
arcum
Guest
DRL is overrated by some of the transit enthusiasts here such as yourself. GO RER/Smart Track will do virtually the same thing.
It makes more sense to expand the network to under-serviced areas rather than build a $10B DRL line over 10 years just to save people a few minutes at Bloor/Yonge station a couple hours a day.
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WislaHD
Superstar
On the contrary, I think that the relief aspect of the DRL is what is overrated. The DRL has tons of other benefits to provide the transit system and the city of Toronto that seems to be overshadowed by some notion of relieving Bloor-Yonge.
The DRL can help reduce crush levels by providing a different interchange station for a very specific group of commuters (Scarborough/East York commuters heading to the Financial District), but it cannot relieve Bloor-Yonge. The only thing that can successfully relieve Bloor-Yonge is commuter rail.
The DRL is treating the symptom (B-Y) instead of treating the illness (suburbanites transferring onto Yonge and Bloor-Danforth at terminus stations). What needs to be done is building the proper infrastructure to incite those suburbanites from the outer 416 and from the 905 to commute downtown through a commuter rail system rather than taking buses to Finch/Kipling/STC.
As for the DRL, I would like to focus on how to maximize its ability to relieve the downtown streetcar lines that are overcrowded, reach new dense neighborhoods and destinations within the core, and utilize the DRL as a means to change travel patterns and increase development and intensification of the downtown core east of Yonge and west of University. The DRL is our best bet of city-building and intensifying our downtown core the way we desire. The idea of having the relief portion take precedence over all these benefits to a downtown subway is a poor investment.
The DRL can help reduce crush levels by providing a different interchange station for a very specific group of commuters (Scarborough/East York commuters heading to the Financial District), but it cannot relieve Bloor-Yonge. The only thing that can successfully relieve Bloor-Yonge is commuter rail.
The DRL is treating the symptom (B-Y) instead of treating the illness (suburbanites transferring onto Yonge and Bloor-Danforth at terminus stations). What needs to be done is building the proper infrastructure to incite those suburbanites from the outer 416 and from the 905 to commute downtown through a commuter rail system rather than taking buses to Finch/Kipling/STC.
As for the DRL, I would like to focus on how to maximize its ability to relieve the downtown streetcar lines that are overcrowded, reach new dense neighborhoods and destinations within the core, and utilize the DRL as a means to change travel patterns and increase development and intensification of the downtown core east of Yonge and west of University. The DRL is our best bet of city-building and intensifying our downtown core the way we desire. The idea of having the relief portion take precedence over all these benefits to a downtown subway is a poor investment.
ehlow
Senior Member
I agree that the relief aspect of the DRL subway is overrated. I don't think the Yonge line or Bloor-Yonge will suddenly be less crowded when that subway happens, other people will just fill up the capacity that is "relieved". I'm more optimistic about the signal improvements in 2018-ish and 6.5 car trains in the mid 2020s.
But even if the DRL does everything people expect it to do, it's still at least 12 years away, if ever, for phase 1 only (Pape to St Andrew).
I think SmartTrack and/or GO RER does a lot of what the DRL could do. It gives people in Scarborough an alternative to taking the Bloor/Yonge subways. It actually does relieve the streetcars quite a bit if stations like LibVill, Spadina, Don River area, and Queen East are built. It doesn't replace the local service of the streetcars, but for many going to those nodes it does offer an alternative. I also think that more and more development will occur near the rail lines, so rapid transit on that corridor will siphon that demand off.
If it's a choice between DRL and SmartTrack, personally I'd go with ST because in my opinion it's better bang for the buck & also because of the difference in time it takes to construct.
But even if the DRL does everything people expect it to do, it's still at least 12 years away, if ever, for phase 1 only (Pape to St Andrew).
I think SmartTrack and/or GO RER does a lot of what the DRL could do. It gives people in Scarborough an alternative to taking the Bloor/Yonge subways. It actually does relieve the streetcars quite a bit if stations like LibVill, Spadina, Don River area, and Queen East are built. It doesn't replace the local service of the streetcars, but for many going to those nodes it does offer an alternative. I also think that more and more development will occur near the rail lines, so rapid transit on that corridor will siphon that demand off.
If it's a choice between DRL and SmartTrack, personally I'd go with ST because in my opinion it's better bang for the buck & also because of the difference in time it takes to construct.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I don't think I've overrated it. I want Metrolinx (or somebody) to study the relief capability of the RER. If it can relieve B-Y effectively, then I'd gladly support cancelling the RL. The greater the value/dollar, the better.
Personally, I'd be surprised if RER can do the job effectively. It moves the transfer point too far east.
I don't think so. It can't replace any of the overcrowded streetcar routes, all of which move more people than Sheppard Subway, and it doesn't provide the same direct access downtown. RER can't operate at the same frequencies of RL and RER cannot have the same station density of RER.
I agree with this completely. Just not when we're building underground transit to move a few thousand people an hour.
It doesn't cost $10 billion.
It does more than save people a few minutes at B-Y Station.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The Relief aspect of RL is definitely overrated. I recall the DTRES concluding as much. If we truly want to relieve Yonge Line, more work is necessary. Anyone who thinks that RL will make their commute less crowded, will be very disappointed.
I agree completely
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I'd be fine with SmartTrack, but Mr. Tory's support of the Eglinton West subway kind of ruins it. Put that thing above ground and we'll be good to go.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Could that be?....Could it possibly be?....No it can't be....Another person that supports the Yonge North Extension apart from me
Actually, I'm going to backtrack on that support. Like the Scarborough Subway, it depends on how much people RER will divert away from the extension. IIRC, the Yonge North extension will move somewhere along the lines of 10,000 persons without RER factored in. With RER, this number will be reduced.