Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[lead82]

I've come to realize that given all the politics and division, this extension is the best we could do to clean up the problem of the extra transfer issue at Kennedy. This was the problem with all the LRT proposals for Scarborough - at their core in that they did not resolve the forced random transfer at Kennedy. The success of this extension will be primarily based on how frequent the buses will service it. We know SCC will be busy and likely Sheppard East station too as it will be the NE hub station serving northern Scarborough and Malvern. It doesn't provide service to Centenniel or UTSC but it removes the bitterness of Scarborough getting the short stick. Now they will get their subway and likely that is the only rapid transit they will see in the coming decades. Eglinton East LRT won't be built anytime soon as all levels of government will be broke after all of the COVID spendings. Anything that's not far enough along will be delayed for years/decades or just plain canceled.

 

[syn]

I thought once we kicked city hall out of the planning it was going to go super smooth. I mean city hall really was the real gravy train blocking the Ford's. Now that the province is in charge are you suggesting that they are just as inept?

Here is your answer:

Secret letters detail Ford government efforts to control Ontario’s supposedly arm’s-length transit agency

"Months after taking office in 2018, the Ontario PC government issued a written directive to Metrolinx prohibiting the supposedly arm’s-length transit agency from communicating with the public about key issues without ministry approval."

 

[syn]

How about the idea that NIMBYS exist and accept that reality. However places like Humber Bay Shores are begging for a subway and we are not giving it to them because some people want to label them downtown elites.

I don't think it's just NIMBYs. There are also historical considerations, neighbourhood character, market demand, etc. This is why subways used to be built where density already existed, rather than building it wherever politics dictated and hoping for the best.

 

[syn]

throwing out the entire relief line plan and starting from scratch doesn't seem like building transit "with some form of urgency" to me. Nor does throwing out the scarborough subway plan and starting that from scratch (although I do prefer the 3-stop plan).


Are you saying we will never have a fight over priority of transit projects again? That seems a little optimistic.

You're right.

It's not realistic to think that once Scarborough gets this line all will be well - especially when plenty of people in Scarborough realize their trips aren't that much shorter.

 

[blacksquirrels]

I don't think it's just NIMBYs. There are also historical considerations, neighbourhood character, market demand, etc. This is why subways used to be built where density already existed, rather than building it wherever politics dictated and hoping for the best.

It's NIMBYs + inept governments with no balls. NIMBYs complain about everything, including increased traffic on an already existing live transit corridor. People will always complain if you give them a platform to do so. Just build it. If it doesn't involve expropriation then it's none of their concern in my opinion. Can't move next to a transit corridor then complain when trains are supposed to used on it.

 

[Northern Light]

I don't think it's just NIMBYs. There are also historical considerations, neighbourhood character, market demand, etc. This is why subways used to be built where density already existed, rather than building it wherever politics dictated and hoping for the best.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

Yonge wasn't all that dense north of Bloor when the subway went in.

Many/Most of the massive rental blocks associated with St. Clair, Davisville and Eglinton followed the subway.

Much of the Line 2 route was low density and indeed still appears to be so.

If you follow Danforth east the only obviously high density pocket is at Main Street Station/Victoria Park Station, both of which were build concurrent to the subway.

Though, in the case of Line 2, a fairly high density pocket along Cosburn from Broadview to Donlands began to emerge pre-subway and was finished concurrently with same.

On the western side, the largest density appears at Dundas West, and then High Park; with both of those hi-rise sections built concurrently with or just after the subway opened.

All of which is to say, certainly some level of density is desirable; a subway to a corn field is not!

However, a reasonable assurance of density built with or immediately after a subway is not inherently poor planning.

*****

Of note, notwithstanding the relatively low density on much of Bloor West and Danforth; Line 2 is not all that far off capacity at peak times.

This is because feeder routes bring people from fairly large distances into the subway; and that too must be considered when planning.

None of which is to re-litigate any issues in this thread; merely to offer that things aren't as easily determined as one or even two simple metrics.

 

[TRONto]

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

Yonge wasn't all that dense north of Bloor when the subway went in.

Many/Most of the massive rental blocks associated with St. Clair, Davisville and Eglinton followed the subway.

Much of the Line 2 route was low density and indeed still appears to be so.

If you follow Danforth east the only obviously high density pocket is at Main Street Station/Victoria Park Station, both of which were build concurrent to the subway.

Though, in the case of Line 2, a fairly high density pocket along Cosburn from Broadview to Donlands began to emerge pre-subway and was finished concurrently with same.

On the western side, the largest density appears at Dundas West, and then High Park; with both of those hi-rise sections built concurrently with or just after the subway opened.

All of which is to say, certainly some level of density is desirable; a subway to a corn field is not!

However, a reasonable assurance of density built with or immediately after a subway is not inherently poor planning.

*****

Of note, notwithstanding the relatively low density on much of Bloor West and Danforth; Line 2 is not all that far off capacity at peak times.

This is because feeder routes bring people from fairly large distances into the subway; and that too must be considered when planning.

None of which is to re-litigate any issues in this thread; merely to offer that things aren't as easily determined as one or even two simple metrics.

Further to this, it seems the PC government is keen on TOD so it wouldn't surprise if they force an upzoning wherever there are new subway stops

 

[OneCity]

OneCity, you seem to be a strong supporter of building subway lines in suburban Scarborough, where the densities don't really necessitate it, and where lower-capacity transit solutions like LRT and BRT would provide speedy transit without the unneeded capacity and at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower cost. (I understand your insistence on connecting Scarborough Town Center to the subway to serve as a hub, and that seems logical to me, I'm mostly talking about Sheppard East here). Do you also believe we should be doing so in places with similar build forms, Etobicoke, Mississauga, Markham, Pickering, North York etc? If not, why?

First off Scarborough is part of Toronto and should have it's Centre connected to the main transit arteries it pays into with no issues. Unfortunately issues came but im glad we moved on to build a solid legacy for Central Scarbororough.

As for the 905:

I'm a strong supporter of Misssauga Centre being connected to the Line 2 after Yonge

Vaughan already connected

Richmond Hill built 15-20 years out

Sheppard built 20-25 years out

20 - 30 plus years out I would expect:
Markham will be planning stages for an SSE extension Pickering may even be planning stages a Sheppard extension

In addition to any required Core relief line and extensions this is how I see the subway network progressing as the GTA grows its urban-suburban Growth nodes moving forward

 

[Steve X]

First off Scarborough is part of Toronto and should have it's Centre connected to the main transit arteries it pays into with no issues. Unfortunately issues came but im glad we moved on to build a solid legacy for Central Scarbororough.

As for the 905:

I'm a strong supporter of Misssauga Centre being connected to the Line 2 after Yonge

Vaughan already connected

Richmond Hill built 15-20 years out

Sheppard built 20-25 years out

20 - 30 plus years out I would expect:
Markham will be planning stages for an SSE extension Pickering may even be planning stages a Sheppard extension

In addition to any required Core relief line and extensions this is how I see the subway network progressing as the GTA grows its urban-suburban Growth nodes moving forward

I feel like the best we'll see is Line 2 extension to Dundas/Hurontario

 

[kamira51]

I feel like the best we'll see is Line 2 extension to Dundas/Hurontario

Now that would be epic. By extending Line 2 to mississauga, it would then be a connection to the Hurontario LRT, so people from Brampton could take it to the line 2 transfer, then take it to downtown Toronto.

let me know what you think.

 

[Northern Light]

Hmmm.

I tend to think Line 1 and 2 are reaching their outer logical lengths.

But I decided to see how long other Metro lines get.

A-Train is the longest route in NYC best I can tell, at about 49km

While London's Central Line is 54.9km

****

Line 1: 46.2km after the YNSE is complete to #7

Further extending this to Major Mack would add 3.8km for a total of 50.0km

Line 2: will be 33.8km after the SSE completes

Extending to Sherway Gardens is about 3.7km (based on previous plans)
From there to Hurontario/Dundas is 6km (measure by Google Map)

So that would bring Line 2 to 42.5km

Extending the SSE up to Markham (McCowan and #7) adds 9km bringing the grand total of this 150-year fantasy project to 51.5km.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Hmmm.

I tend to think Line 1 and 2 are reaching their outer logical lengths.

But I decided to see how long other Metro lines get.

A-Train is the longest route in NYC best I can tell, at about 49km

While London's Central Line is 54.9km

****

Line 1: 46.2km after the YNSE is complete to #7

Further extending this to Major Mack would add 3.8km for a total of 50.0km

Line 2: will be 33.8km after the SSE completes

Extending to Sherway Gardens is about 3.7km (based on previous plans)
From there to Hurontario/Dundas is 6km (measure by Google Map)

So that would bring Line 2 to 42.5km

Extending the SSE up to Markham (McCowan and #7) adds 9km bringing the grand total of this 150-year fantasy project to 51.5km.

A two-hour ride for one fare (allegedly). Compare with a taxi or Uber fare, or the fuel used by your motor vehicle.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A two-hour ride for one fare (allegedly). Compare with a taxi or Uber fare, or the fuel used by your motor vehicle.

Still can't get to the zoo from Etobicoke (or Mississauga in the future) by any rapid transit.

 

[kali]

it makes no sense extending subways that far into the suburbs. if you're going downtown, it's called GO Transit ffs.

 

[ARG1]

it makes no sense extending subways that far into the suburbs. if you're going downtown, it's called GO Transit ffs.

There are some locations where GO Transit isn't feasible. The Richmond Hill Line will NEVER be anything more than just rush hour commuter rail because A) its in a flood plain, and B) due to its routing, it will be nearly impossible for them to build connections to any TTC line other than Leslie on Line 4 and Union. As Metrolinx has stated themselves, that line has no future in regional rail. Milton line is another case where because the track is owned by CP, it would probably cost as much to pay off CP to finally be able to build a proper regional rail service on the line, as it would to extend Line 2 far into Mississauga. Its also important to add however that most of where the subway is today used to be in suburbs. When projects like the Yonge Line extension to North York was built, the idea of a "North York Centre" was just that, an idea. North York Centre was built purely because of the subway corridor. When paired with proper city planning, subways turn suburbs into High-Rise corridors. There is a reason why if you view any aerial view of Toronto, you will find most density around where subway corridors are located, namely Yonge. Finally, GO Transit is incredibly good at being like an express route for longer distance commutes, especially travelling between the different cities in the GTA. You know what its not good for? More locally oriented transit. GO Transit should not exist and could not exist "on its own", it needs to be supplemented by a more local mode of rapid transportation to fill in the gaps, which includes either LRT, or Subways, or even Busways.