Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

People have learned nothing since the election. You guys are practically begging for another Fordist mayoralty.

Unless people are going to push the RER with Smart Track hard as an alternative, the subway is going to happen. Pushing the LRT, and pushing it to obstruct Tory, will get another Fordist demagogue in power.

Some of you may see transit as solely some numbers issue of riders. It's become an equity issue, because the time it takes to transit is the largest determinant of quality of life and employment opportunity. Ride quality has only become an indicator to people, thanks to letting the SRT fall apart. You can work with these ideas or fight them. Your choice.

Steve Munro is exactly the type of guy who only sees riders as numbers and does not give a shit about their concerns or motivation in using public transit. If he truly cared about people, he'd have been pushing RER years ago instead of LRTs that stop every 500m.

If I lived in Rexdale, I'd gladly take a trip on an RT to a subway station instead of a long bus ride.

Taking transit from Browns Line is no walk in the park - an RT that could get me to Kipling station in 10 minutes or less would be fantastic.

A trip on the RT is easily preferable to a 30 mins or more snails pace crawl on the King or Queen Streetcar.

As a frequent transit user traveling all over the city, I find the RT to be one of the fastest and most convenient routes on the system. Even when it's crowded (which is almost entirely only during rush hour), the ride is very short - it's definitely preferable to a streetcar. The 'ride quality' is fantastic compared to other modes of transit, and Scarborough is currently the only area of the city that has a dedicated line (and has for many decades now).

Nobody seems to care about 'quality of life' for Rexdale commuters or those in other areas of the city. Why don't they get a subway?

What about all the people losing access to nearby rapid transit stations when they're all eliminated in favour of one stop?

If they'd went ahead with the LRT plan I'm sure people in Scarborough would be very happy with it right now.

Ride quality is not what's driving the desire for a subway - it's identity politics, something any politician can use anywhere. It's not something that will ever end if we continue to support it.

Understanding the experience of others is a wonderful thing - but there's little we can do for people that are, quite simply, too physically far from the downtown core for the removal of a transfer to have any real impact - especially when everyone is expected to pay billions to make it happen.

 

[kEiThZ]

So the GO doesnt exist anymore

Without full schedule and fare integration?

Not for most people.

Ride quality is not what's driving the desire for a subway - it's identity politics, something any politician can use anywhere. It's not something that will ever end if we continue to support it.

Because the subway has been conflated with access to opportunity. It literally does that. It connects commuters to the best job market in the region.

So if you see the subway as your access to opportunity, it's only natural to see a denial of an extension as an attack on your community and you.

Understanding the experience of others is a wonderful thing - but there's little we can do for people that are, quite simply, too physically far from the downtown core for the removal of a transfer to have any real impact - especially when everyone is expected to pay billions to make it happen.

There's absolutely something that can be done. I have literally suggested an alternative here.

 

[syn]

There's absolutely something that can be done. I have literally suggested an alternative here.

I mean there is nothing that can be done that will make a subway the solution to their problem.

Because the subway has been conflated with access to opportunity. It literally does that. It connects commuters to the best job market in the region.

So if you see the subway as your access to opportunity, it's only natural to see a denial of an extension as an attack on your community and you.

But did the majority see it that way before Ford told everyone they deserved a subway? Not really.

What about everyone else that doesn't have a subway? Is their community being attacked too?

Once Scarborough gets it's one stop and realizes they're losing out on all the other stops the RT had, along with longer bus rides (at a very poorly located bus station) they'll demand more. There is no such thing as 'enough transit' when the motivation is want rather than need.

 

[JSF-1]

If I lived in Rexdale, I'd gladly take a trip on an RT to a subway station instead of a long bus ride.

Taking transit from Browns Line is no walk in the park - an RT that could get me to Kipling station in 10 minutes or less would be fantastic.

A trip on the RT is easily preferable to a 30 mins or more snails pace crawl on the King or Queen Streetcar.

As a frequent transit user traveling all over the city, I find the RT to be one of the fastest and most convenient routes on the system. Even when it's crowded (which is almost entirely only during rush hour), the ride is very short - it's definitely preferable to a streetcar. The 'ride quality' is fantastic compared to other modes of transit, and Scarborough is currently the only area of the city that has a dedicated line (and has for many decades now).

Nobody seems to care about 'quality of life' for Rexdale commuters or those in other areas of the city. Why don't they get a subway?

What about all the people losing access to nearby rapid transit stations when they're all eliminated in favour of one stop?

If they'd went ahead with the LRT plan I'm sure people in Scarborough would be very happy with it right now.

Ride quality is not what's driving the desire for a subway - it's identity politics, something any politician can use anywhere. It's not something that will ever end if we continue to support it.

Understanding the experience of others is a wonderful thing - but there's little we can do for people that are, quite simply, too physically far from the downtown core for the removal of a transfer to have any real impact - especially when everyone is expected to pay billions to make it happen.

You can thank the Province for that. Had they kept there nose's out of Metro's business the Etobicoke RT would have been built.

 

[Leo_Chan]

You can thank the Province for that. Had they kept there nose's out of Metro's business the Etobicoke RT would have been built.

But the second SRT (ERT?) would never have happened if Scarborough got an express streetcar instead. Was Kipling station designed after Kennedy Station’s modifications?

 

[sixrings]

Without full schedule and date integration?

Not for most people.

Yet when i take the GO to and from Mississauga to see In laws the GO trains often now have people standing not only on the lower level but on the upper level. Also it sure seems like most GO stations are adding parking. Im not going to waste my time googling it but Ill assume GO ridership is up.

I do think there are some 905 people who do not want to pay double fare so they get dropped off at the farthest TTC station. Some people want there to be a more fair fare for TTC GO riders. Well presto is coming so eventually something is going to happen but at the end of the day there can only be so much subsidies to each rider. Transit is never going to be as cheap as people want and it seems the people who want to use the transit the farthest, which means it costs the system the most, want to pay the lowest fares arguing that they cant afford to live in the city. That is a whole other debate in itself but really we need to work with what is sustainable.

 

[syn]

You can thank the Province for that. Had they kept there nose's out of Metro's business the Etobicoke RT would have been built.

And I'm sure people would've been quite happy to use it - which is really the point I'm making.

The RT, as much as people complain that it's some form of oppression, is actually something other communities can only dream of.

There are plenty of options for transit in Scarborough that would be more cost effective, and more effective overall than a multi-billion dollar project to eliminate rapid transit stops.

Transit is never going to be as cheap as people want and it seems the people who want to use the transit the farthest, which means it costs the system the most, want to pay the lowest fares arguing that they cant afford to live in the city

That's a great point. The TTC doesn't have zone fares, which it could very justifiably implement. Right now your core riders are subsidizing the riders in the suburbs.

 

[Streety McCarface]

That's a great point. The TTC doesn't have zone fares, which it could very justifiably implement. Right now your core riders are subsidizing the riders in the suburbs.

While it's true that core riders are subsidizing riders out in the suburbs, we have to remember that this is public transport, and there are significant benefits to lowering the fares for those commuting into the downtown core. Montreal understands this, as well as New York City. As a result, all three cities have excellent ridership and very low rates of downtown car commutes. I'd gladly subsidize suburban riders if it means they're not driving downtown, clogging the streets, killing pedestrians/cyclists, and polluting the air. The TTC have figuring out the most efficient fare structure down to a complicated calculus, and with the lowest fare recovery rates of any major transit system in North America to speak for that (despite the unions and insane regulations).

The TTC actually has a good business case of fixing some of these concerns with time-based transfers, and GO Transit was about to make it a hell lot easier with 3$ Toronto fares. With time-based transfers, a commuter from the edge of the city will not be able to travel back without paying for another ride, while a commuter downtown can make 3 trips going to 2 stores on a streetcar/subway for the same 3$. That seems relatively fair and should hopefully increase ridership. With 3$ go fares and 1.50$ TTC co-fares, people who see GO Transit as an alternative can pay the premium to use the service while not paying an exorbitant fee for transferring.

 

[aquateam]

The TTC have figuring out the most efficient fare structure down to a complicated calculus, and with the lowest fare recovery rates of any major transit system in North America to speak for that (despite the unions and insane regulations).

I don't know if you're serious when you say that a flat fare across the city was the result of finding "the most efficient fare structure down to a complicated calculus."

The low fare recovery ratio isn't a mark of an efficient fare structure. It's low because:

Accounting: Most agencies include ongoing State Of Good Repair expenditures as part of their operating costs. The TTC shifts those from the Operating budget to the Capital budget, making their fare recovery ratio artificially high. Otherwise it would be about 45%.

Vehicle productivity: TTC vehicles have a relatively large number of riders/vehicle kilometer due to Toronto's (relatively) transit-supportive urban fabric. The city has high density by North American standards, with pockets of high density near the subways. The downtown (the main driver of transit ridership) never hollowed out. And the grid structure of arterial roads mean that buses can take a fairly direct route. All of these factors encourage more riders per bus, despite the awful service provided by the TTC, which improves the cost performance.

High fares: Toronto has one of the world's highest transit fares (5th in the world.) It's not that the TTC costs less to operate, it's that customers pay more. I don't think this is something to be proud of.

 

[JSF-1]

But the second SRT (ERT?) would never have happened if Scarborough got an express streetcar instead. Was Kipling station designed after Kennedy Station’s modifications?

Both lines were planned as LRT (or express streetcar as you put it) you can see this (or could) at Kipling with its disused Streetcar platform opposite the bus bays. After the Province essentially blackmailed Metro into using there ICTS trains the Etobicoke RT was dead because the province's stuff wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

 

[micheal_can]

While it's true that core riders are subsidizing riders out in the suburbs, we have to remember that this is public transport, and there are significant benefits to lowering the fares for those commuting into the downtown core. Montreal understands this, as well as New York City. As a result, all three cities have excellent ridership and very low rates of downtown car commutes. I'd gladly subsidize suburban riders if it means they're not driving downtown, clogging the streets, killing pedestrians/cyclists, and polluting the air. The TTC have figuring out the most efficient fare structure down to a complicated calculus, and with the lowest fare recovery rates of any major transit system in North America to speak for that (despite the unions and insane regulations).

The TTC actually has a good business case of fixing some of these concerns with time-based transfers, and GO Transit was about to make it a hell lot easier with 3$ Toronto fares. With time-based transfers, a commuter from the edge of the city will not be able to travel back without paying for another ride, while a commuter downtown can make 3 trips going to 2 stores on a streetcar/subway for the same 3$. That seems relatively fair and should hopefully increase ridership. With 3$ go fares and 1.50$ TTC co-fares, people who see GO Transit as an alternative can pay the premium to use the service while not paying an exorbitant fee for transferring.

Vancouver has fare zones and it seems to work well. The Skytrain is still packed during the rush hours.

 

[kEiThZ]

But did the majority see it that way before Ford told everyone they deserved a subway? Not really.

Yes, they did. That people think this only started with Ford is part of the broader ignorance that makes this debate so challenging. This has been going on in Scarborough since the 1990s. And really took off post-Sheppard subway.

That you only heard about it when Rob Ford had mayoral ambitions doesn't mean that sentiment wasn't commonplace before.

What about everyone else that doesn't have a subway? Is their community being attacked too?

Do they also have the nearly 2 hr TTC commutes like some of the edge of Scarborough?

Once Scarborough gets it's one stop and realizes they're losing out on all the other stops the RT had, along with longer bus rides (at a very poorly located bus station) they'll demand more.

The only demand I foresee is for in-fill stops. I have never heard any serious colloquial conversation about extending the subway past STC.

. Im not going to waste my time googling it but Ill assume GO ridership is up.

It's up. I don't see your point? Population growth will boost ridership. And when train service doesn't increase proportionally, the trains will be more crowded too.

Transit is never going to be as cheap as people want and it seems the people who want to use the transit the farthest, which means it costs the system the most, want to pay the lowest fares arguing that they cant afford to live in the city. That is a whole other debate in itself but really we need to work with what is sustainable.

This isn't just about "cheap". I'd be one of the first to argue for fare-by-distance. It's about integration. You need to have service AND fare systems that will divert riders to the regional system. We won't have that for a very long time.

That's a great point. The TTC doesn't have zone fares, which it could very justifiably implement. Right now your core riders are subsidizing the riders in the suburbs.

This needs to be seen in the context of desired regional transport outcomes. Let's say we drastically increased the cost to commute from the outer edges of the 416, what do you think the outcome would be transit ridership and traffic, absent other policies?

For the record, I support fare-by-distance for the subway and GO networks. Be that zones or a kilometric calculation. But this needs to be accompanied by congestion charges and/or increases in parking charges in the core. Or the bet effect will simply be more horrendous traffic.

 

[syn]

Yes, they did. That people think this only started with Ford is part of the broader ignorance that makes this debate so challenging. This has been going on in Scarborough since the 1990s. And really took off post-Sheppard subway.

That you only heard about it when Rob Ford had mayoral ambitions doesn't mean that sentiment wasn't commonplace before.

I'm not referring to feelings of alienation though - I'm referring to the idea that any transit that addresses these issues must be a subway. As @steveintoronto has pointed out, there was significant (if not majority) support for the LRT. This only changed after years of being told they 'deserved' more.

Do they also have the nearly 2 hr TTC commutes like some of the edge of Scarborough?

The commute times from either end of the city to Union are similar.

Relative commute times in the core during rush hour can be worse.

The only demand I foresee is for in-fill stops. I have never heard any serious colloquial conversation about extending the subway past STC.

Under the current plan in-fill stops aren't really a possibility.

It's only a matter of time before those north of STC wonder why they don't 'deserve' a subway too.

Too bad Scarborough isn't it's own city.

 

[Isotack]

Question for this downtown centric forum most of whom are not from Scarborough and have rarely been to the suburbs. If I live in Scarborough and I want to travel on public transit because I can't afford a car, to say...Mississauga, how do I get there? or...Etobicoke and I work in Vaughan. Or I live in Markham and I work in Brampton, Or Whitby, Oshawa or Ajax to Pickering. Or any of those places to Centennial, Seneca or York? My point is that the only way, is to go through downtown. Most people of limited means do not work or travel down town. The are no routes except multiple busses to get across the city. Don't say LRTs will work...because they stop at every intersection and experience the same traffic that vehicles do. GO only covers the lakeshore for Durham and points west of Toronto. That would include south Scarborough and Etobicoke. The province and the city...(the whole city) needs to get serious about moving people across town and not just down town. One issue that people in Scarborough have with the new "Cross Town" on Eglington is that it will not be in a dedicated right of way...it, like the Viva in York will go down the middle of Eglington once it gets to Scarborough, then it's traffic light after traffic light after that. Not much improvement over the bus. To say nothing of standing in the cold waiting for the damn thing. Cross town should be extensions of the Shepard subway and one on Finch as well.

By the way...in 1980 over 38 years ago, it took over two hours to get to Seneca College from Ajax when I went there. Infrequent connections and bad scheduling.

It's still the same.

 

[syn]

Question for this downtown centric forum most of whom are not from Scarborough and have rarely been to the suburbs. If I live in Scarborough and I want to travel on public transit because I can't afford a car, to say...Mississauga, how do I get there? or...Etobicoke and I work in Vaughan. Or I live in Markham and I work in Brampton, Or Whitby, Oshawa or Ajax to Pickering. Or any of those places to Centennial, Seneca or York?

You can get from STC to Square One via GO Transit with one transfer.

Here's a question - what is the current demand for travel from Scarborough to Mississauga?

There's definitely a need to expand regional transit for more expedient travel across the GTA, but I think someone who lives in Ajax and goes to York should expect a long commute.

My point is that the only way, is to go through downtown. Most people of limited means do not work or travel down town. The are no routes except multiple busses to get across the city. Don't say LRTs will work...because they stop at every intersection and experience the same traffic that vehicles do. GO only covers the lakeshore for Durham and points west of Toronto. That would include south Scarborough and Etobicoke. The province and the city...(the whole city) needs to get serious about moving people across town and not just down town.

Downtown Toronto has been the major commercial/business centre for the region for decades. Why didn't Scarborough and Mississauga build their 'city centres' in better strategic locations? The answer is that they're suburbs that were designed as suburbs - for the car. They weren't designed for efficient transit.

The province and the city...(the whole city) needs to get serious about moving people across town and not just down town. One issue that people in Scarborough have with the new "Cross Town" on Eglington is that it will not be in a dedicated right of way...it, like the Viva in York will go down the middle of Eglington once it gets to Scarborough, then it's traffic light after traffic light after that. Not much improvement over the bus. To say nothing of standing in the cold waiting for the damn thing. Cross town should be extensions of the Shepard subway and one on Finch as well.

By the way...in 1980 over 38 years ago, it took over two hours to get to Seneca College from Ajax when I went there. Infrequent connections and bad scheduling.

It's actually a significant improvement over the bus.

There is no need to put the Crosstown underground in Scarborough.

If Downtown Toronto is forced to get by with streetcars, Scarborough will be fine with a new LRT.

I do agree that with the rapid growth of the GTA, the province needs to dramatically expand the GO Network to facilitate transit across the GTA.