Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hardly anyone in Etobicoke and North York cares about the exact implementation of transit in Scarborough. Most of people generally support transit expansion, but do not go into much details.

Then lets stop saying its downtown vs the suburbs if they don't care, because that's what Im hearing.

 

[JSF-1]

it is a fair statement that huge GO bi-levels isn't the only kind of trainsets we should be looking for in the RER context.

We don't really need Bi-Levels for RER like you said. The way I see it is we use Bi-Levels because of the low service, so we are cramming as many people into as few trains possible. Once we start running at 15 Minute intervals trains on most lines will be arriving faster than they can be filled so Bi-Levels kind of loose there purpose. Outside of Rush Hour most trains will be ghost towns (although this will obviously change as years progress). During Rush Hour if ridership warrants it we can always just cram a Bi-Level or 2 into the Train consist like the Joban line in Japan (assuming ML has done there homework and knows you can do this).

 

[rbt]

We don't really need Bi-Levels for RER like you said. The way I see it is we use Bi-Levels because of the low service, so we are cramming as many people into as few trains possible.

Lake Shore West runs 12-car Bilevel trains every 6 minutes through Union during AM peak hour and they're quite full. The equivalent capacity in single-level trains is about 4 minute frequencies (same seated capacity; you can reduce frequencies if you remove the seats and nearly everybody stands).

By 2035 they'll be looking at 2 minute AM peak frequencies for single-level trains and that's not going to be easy to do at all.

I will be very surprised if new electrified trains were not bilevel; assuming that we order electrified trains.

 

[JSF-1]

Offpeak however there will be no need for bi-levels since all lines will be operating at 15 Minute headways which is double even what the Lakeshore lines operate as today. Using bi-levels outside of peak periods would be overkill and throwing money away. GO should also be minimizing the amount of downtime for trains, a train shouldn't be idling at Union for more than 2 minutes and should function similar to the subway, in and out.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think that's fair to him. He is much in support of RER.

Regarding the pushing part; not being in any official role, he can't really push anything in any way other than promoting on his blog. His blog is as supportive of RER as it is of light rail.

Disagree. He never pushed back on Transit City when it was pushed by Miller ahead of the DRL. And he never pushed the idea of any sort of regional transit until Queen's Park brought it up. Look's to me like he's drifted from being a transit advocate to Wynne and Miller transit apologist.

Should have been obvious to anyone a while back that Toronto's transit is a mess because we don't have integration and rely on the wrong modes. We have Scarborough commuters taking a subway which stops every 800-2000m for 20+ stops to downtown. Those riders should have been on suburban rail systems. Steve Munro's solution? Knock a few minutes off their bus ride with LRT.

 

[44 North]

Disagree. He never pushed back on Transit City when it was pushed by Miller ahead of the DRL. And he never pushed the idea of any sort of regional transit until Queen's Park brought it up.
Look's to me like he's drifted from being a transot advocate to Wynne and Miller transit apologist.

Should have been obvious to anyone a while back that Toronto's transit is a mess because we don't have integration and rely on the wrong modes. We have Scarborough commuters taking a subway which stops every 800-2000m for 20+ stops to downtown. Those riders should have been on suburban rail systems. Steve Munro's solution? Knock a few minutes off their bus ride with LRT.

With Transit City the RL was still supposed to start around 2018-19. That wasn't contingent on TC being in place (as in, if TC is delayed then it's ok for RL to be delayed). It was simply that RL would begin around that time (which is today). I agree he should've pushed harder for it, but it's pretty clear higher levels weren't on board with RL. Heck even Metrolinx fought against it until a couple years ago, the same shill crew that included it as a priority in their fantasy Big Move nonsense.

Certainly not being an apologist for Munro, I disagree with a lot of what he writes. But imo even SSE supporters should be opposed to the SSE we have now...the one that has no stations for 6km, nor any plan to add them. That's downright insulting. No stations, through an area with massive transit usage. If that's what's being pushed then why not support SLRT as a reasonable alternative.

And who's to say the Prov is right with RER? It effectively came out of an election promise just a few years ago. I mean really, is it as good as they say? Who knows. Could we use the exact same funds and instead expand to Cambridge, north Durham, Bolton? Perhaps it wouldn't be electrified, but by offering greater coverage we also might not have tens of thousands racing to stations that already have full parking lots or now require multi-million dollar multi-level garages. We know Metrolinx promised that full coverage, and that they studied electrifcation and subsequently rejected it. Then an election came around and suddenly the Big Move promise gets tossed aside and that electrification report's findings are ignored. Perhaps it would in fact make more sense to have more local RT in Scarb, and have Stouff GO be AD2W. Either way I wouldn't simply accept the Prov's proposals/promises as better just cuz.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Look's to me like he's drifted from being a transot advocate to Wynne and Miller transit apologist.

Munro is clearly no fan of Wynne. C'mon

 

[kEiThZ]

Munro is clearly no fan of Wynne. C'mon

In the sense that he thought she wasn't doing enough. Sure. But it's amazingly coincidental, how his views on what's best for GTA transit lined up really well with the Liberals' ideas. During the McGuinty and Wynne years.

For a transit advocate, dude is rather unimaginative. You telling me that a guy who lives and breathes what we do for a few minutes a day couldn't spot the suburban rail sized hole in Liberals' plans?

And to tie it to the topic at hand. Let's be clear. This subway is happening because many of his ilk insisted that local transit was a higher priority than regional transit. An assertion made by him, Miller and Giambrone, over and above the insistence of residents and users from that area. I can understand they didn't want to build an expensive subway. But why the heck did they prioritize local transit over regional travel? They spent years trying to ram the LRT plan down people's throats, instead of trying to address that regional travel concern. This was all time that could have been spent operationalizing RER and getting the public used to the idea that they didn't have to rely on a subway to get downtown.

It's easy to call out the Fords for pushing subways. But really, they capitalized on public sentiment that the subway is the only mode of regional travel in the 416.

 

[nfitz]

But really, they capitalized on public sentiment that the subway is the only mode of regional travel in the 416.

You might want to check the data.

Subway isn't even the top mode within the 416, let alone for regional travel!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's easy to call out the Fords for pushing subways. But really, they capitalized on public sentiment that the subway is the only mode of regional travel in the 416.

I'll call out the Ford's for capitalizing on public sentiment, rather than encouraging functional transit solutions.

 

[44 North]

I'll call out the Ford's for capitalizing on public sentiment, rather than encouraging functional transit solutions.

I'll also call them out for seemingly having zero knowledge of Line 3's existence, not to mention claiming that its upgrade was to travel on the street. Polluted discussion while also like you say majorly capitalizing on public sentiment. And even today Doug is still capitalizing on this by saying "rapid underground transit", as if Line 3 has no merit. Had they simply said we're going to remove the line-to-line transfer at Kennedy for the greater good, that's one thing. But it's as if they didn't know the transfer was there.

 

[kEiThZ]

You might want to check the data.

Subway isn't even the top mode within the 416, let alone for regional travel!

Of course it isn't. But it's the only regional mode of transport that most outer 416 residents understand thanks to a lack of suburban rail and no real integration between TTC and GO.

That's the problem. Nobody should be taking a subway 23 stops to get from Eastern Scarborough to Union. That makes no sense. And alleviating that concern with a replacement of their feeder bus ride with light rail doesn't make sense.

 

[nfitz]

Of course it isn't. But it's the only regional mode of transport that most outer 416 residents understand thanks to a lack of suburban rail and no real integration between TTC and GO.

There's a huge suburban rail network!

The primary regional mode of transportation though is car.

I'm not sure I'd even call the subway regional. Certainly it isn't for many commuters (even if you divide Toronto into regions!)

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm not sure I'd even call the subway regional. Certainly it isn't for many commuters (even if you divide Toronto into regions!)

If you're commuting from the outer edges of the 416, the subway acts as a regional line. Most people aren't taking it 6-7 stops like you would most subway systems.

In the absence of suburban rail, the subway has become the regional network.

 

[sixrings]

So the GO doesnt exist anymore