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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Seems this thread is turning back into Scarborough bashing and generalizations along with personal speculations against anything that has been said and a clear supported political mandate on transit in this City.
Seems some just can't read. Of course Scarborough deserves transit, just not a subway. No-one deserves a subway when the trunk is already splitting at the seams.

What is it you don't understand about the word "by-pass"? RER is the answer, and in tunnel where necessary (as in Relief Line) but the slavish devotion to "subways, subways, subways" not only has to stop, it will stop. The funding just isn't there for what you want, wild claims to the contrary. And the shid is going to hit the fan when the TTC Board realizes it.
 
I don't care what they think, I'm sourcing reference. They think everyone hates them because they're so hard done by and life is unfair. The Free Market hates them too, and yet they think Ford will be their saviour. They're in for a shock.

Subways aren't the answer, for Scarborough, the Relief Line, for Richmond Hill, or Vaughan, the latter being a massive mistake. The present subway pre TYSSE was bursting at the seams as it was, and badly in need of investment, not expansion. There's far better ways to serve regions, and doing it by bypassing the present groaning infrastructure.

Seems some just can't read. Of course Scarborough deserves transit, just not a subway. No-one deserves a subway when the trunk is already splitting at the seams.

What is it you don't understand about the word "by-pass"? RER is the answer, and in tunnel where necessary (as in Relief Line) but the slavish devotion to "subways, subways, subways" not only has to stop, it will stop. The funding just isn't there for what you want, wild claims to the contrary. And the shid is going to hit the fan when the TTC Board realizes it.

I hate to say it, but RER cannot be the answer everywhere, and the Relief line is one of those places. The best RER systems in the world (ie Tokyo, Vienna, London, Berlin) loop around the city and have maybe 1 or 2 lines that go through downtown. RER as is does not loop around the city and cannot serve very important suburban developments (ie STC, Fairview Mall, Yorkdale, York University) effectively without tunnelling, which is even more expensive than subway construction because of pantograph usage. What RER can do if properly integrated with the bus system (seamless transfers at terminals (like TTC stations)) and subway system, is to shuttle people to and from downtown via Union station, and future downtown stations (Gerrard, Spadina, etc). The DRL has the flexibility of travelling wherever it needs to -- which is along don mills, not the Richmond Hill corridor. RER completely misses the STC -- a huge development by about a kilometre. The same happened at York University. I'm all for RER but the best improvement that can be made to it is by utilizing the Midtown corridor and the CN York Sub to create a crosstown line around Toronto, not by running the DRL on Leslie.

RER, while is mainly above ground, is still extremely expensive to build and maintain. Tunnels and stations are significantly larger, which add to costs. Like it or not, Subways still make sense in Toronto.
 
People have learned nothing since the election. You guys are practically begging for another Fordist mayoralty.

Unless people are going to push the RER with Smart Track hard as an alternative, the subway is going to happen. Pushing the LRT, and pushing it to obstruct Tory, will get another Fordist demagogue in power.

Some of you may see transit as solely some numbers issue of riders. It's become an equity issue, because the time it takes to transit is the largest determinant of quality of life and employment opportunity. Ride quality has only become an indicator to people, thanks to letting the SRT fall apart. You can work with these ideas or fight them. Your choice.

Sourcing Steve Munro is not going to win people over. These people think he hates scarborough despite working there for years

Steve Munro is exactly the type of guy who only sees riders as numbers and does not give a shit about their concerns or motivation in using public transit. If he truly cared about people, he'd have been pushing RER years ago instead of LRTs that stop every 500m.
 
Ford for Mayor, premier and PM. The perfect trinity for subways saviour.

I can only speak for myself but I am not out there canvassing or anything for LRT. I just debate the Subway on here and with a small number of my Scarborough friends who are split between the two. I agree this is a political stumbling block which keeps slowing things down. I have definitely learned that over the years that the "we deserve a subway and say no to transfers" can be used as a political wedge.. Yet Subway advocates have to realize the thing LRT advocates have been yelling for years.... there simply isn't enough money for all these projects. Sure we can say subway here there and everywhere to get votes but what that means is we will likely see the transit built even more slowly and with more and more delays.
 
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Indeed. It's bound to be interesting either way.

It's more than just not wanting to. They're kinda mandatory or in 2025 we may start seeing commute issues as large as exist on the SRT today. As such, I hope they're higher up in the funding priority line as sacrificing service between Kennedy and Kipling to extend service doesn't seem wise (we've done that before with the subway system and it resulted in deaths).

In 2026 the T1's will start hitting 30 years old. SRT vehicles hit 30 years old in 2015; T1s are not expected to be more reliable at old age than SRT vehicles are.

In 2025 the some parts of BD signalling will turn 50 years old and failure rates through that central portion will increase rapidly.

For reliable service on the extension, signalling needs to be funded by 2020 and rolling stock around 2021 for the entirety of Line 2. Ford's 2019/2020 budget will be telling; it should top-up federal funding to cover these items so he can declare all roadblocks out of the way.

Got it, thanks for the explanation.

So, I think it is fair to say that the elephant in the room is a large SOGR requirement for the BD line. Its timing happens to align with the SSE project, but the need itself is not triggered by SSE. It is needed either way, SSE or not.

Because this is a matter of safety and operational stability, the BD line's SOGR need will push itself ahead of any transit expansion priorities.

Thus, every major expansion project is potentially at risk: not just SSE, but the Relief Line, Yonge North, Eglinton West LRT as well.

We already know that Ford can't build all subways he promised. Those on top of his priority list have a reasonable chance, the rest will be pushed into indefined future. Now with one more high-priority item on the list, the list of affordable expansions may be even shorter than it would be otherwise.

I still hope SSE will make it into the short list though.
 
People have learned nothing since the election. You guys are practically begging for another Fordist mayoralty.

Unless people are going to push the RER with Smart Track hard as an alternative, the subway is going to happen. Pushing the LRT, and pushing it to obstruct Tory, will get another Fordist demagogue in power.

Some of you may see transit as solely some numbers issue of riders. It's become an equity issue, because the time it takes to transit is the largest determinant of quality of life and employment opportunity. Ride quality has only become an indicator to people, thanks to letting the SRT fall apart. You can work with these ideas or fight them. Your choice.



Steve Munro is exactly the type of guy who only sees riders as numbers and does not give a shit about their concerns or motivation in using public transit. If he truly cared about people, he'd have been pushing RER years ago instead of LRTs that stop every 500m.
It does not have to be LRT but this version of the subway is no good. And I feel people in Etobicoke and North York feel the same as downtown.
 
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There are many corridors in the city where light rail can be built 3-4 times cheaper than a subway of the same length.

That's not the case for SSE; you would still spend a fortune building light rail, achieving a modest saving over subway, while creating lots of resentment.

Do it right and don't cheap out.
 
Is does not have to be LRT but this version of the subway is no good. And I feel people in Etobicoke and North York feel the same as downtown.

Hardly anyone in Etobicoke and North York cares about the exact implementation of transit in Scarborough. Most of people generally support transit expansion, but do not go into much details.
 
Steve Munro is exactly the type of guy who only sees riders as numbers and does not give a shit about their concerns or motivation in using public transit. If he truly cared about people, he'd have been pushing RER years ago instead of LRTs that stop every 500m.

I don't think that's fair to him. He is much in support of RER.

Regarding the pushing part; not being in any official role, he can't really push anything in any way other than promoting on his blog. His blog is as supportive of RER as it is of light rail.
 
I hate to say it, but RER cannot be the answer everywhere, and the Relief line is one of those places. The best RER systems in the world (ie Tokyo, Vienna, London, Berlin) loop around the city and have maybe 1 or 2 lines that go through downtown. RER as is does not loop around the city and cannot serve very important suburban developments (ie STC, Fairview Mall, Yorkdale, York University) effectively without tunnelling, which is even more expensive than subway construction because of pantograph usage.
Really?
Crossrail: The slow route to London's regional express railway
Article in The Town planning review 85(2):171-190 · January 2014 with 16 Reads
DOI: 10.3828/tpr.2014.11

Abstract
The Crossrail project was inaugurated in 2010 and is due for completion in 2018, allowing regional trains to run through rail tunnels deep under London and out the other side instead of terminating their journeys at one of the city's nineteenth-century termini. The long-established S-Bahn systems of German cities and the Parisian regional express network, RER, have proved the value of regional urban express networks as infrastructures that facilitate compact, polycentric metropolitan development. London is a very late comer to the RER concept, yet the potential for joining up its radial routes was recognized more than a century ago. Many different combinations have been promoted, but none until now has left the drawing-board. The paper explores the long, unsuccessful history of cross-London rail planning, highlighting the significance of comparison with Paris, and drawing lessons for the contribution of rail to 'save the city'.
Crossrail: The slow route to London's regional express railway | Request PDF. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ow_route_to_London's_regional_express_railway [accessed Jul 25 2018].

March 19, 2018

[...]
Paris, you see, has not one but two underground railway systems. The more famous one is the original Paris Metro, opened in 1900: that’s the one with those fancy green portals with the word “metropolitain” written above them in a vaguely kooky font.

The Metro, though, mostly serves Paris Intra-muros: the official city, inside the Boulevard Périphérique ring road, site of the city’s last set of walls. As a result, it’s of very little use in most of the city’s suburbs. Its stations are very close together, which places a limit on how fast its trains can cross town. It was also, by the mid 20th century, becoming annoyingly overcrowded.

So starting in the 1960s, the city transport authorities began planning a second underground railway network. The Réseau Express Régional – Regional Express Network – would link suburban lines on either side of Paris, through new heavy rail tunnels beneath the city. Its stations would be much further apart than those of the metro – roughly one every 3km, rather than every 600m – so its trains can run faster.

And fifty years and five lines later, it means that 224 stations in the suburbs of Paris are served by trains which, rather than terminating on the edge of the city, now continue directly through tunnels to its centre.
[...]
https://www.citymetric.com/transport/why-doesn-t-london-build-rer-network-paris-crossrail-elizabeth

Crossrail's core section, in tunnel, through the heart of London is scheduled to start later this year with 2.5 min headways. That can be decreased later to below 2 mins. It's all highly documented in detail on-line.

And these are up to 10 car (Being upgradable to 12 later) UK mainline gauge trains, in fact they run out onto Network Rail (the national rail system).

  • Crossrail Limited is building the Elizabeth line - a new railway for London and the South East, running from Reading and Heathrow in the west, through 42km of new tunnels under London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east.
  • The Crossrail project is currently Europe’s largest infrastructure project.
  • The new railway, which will be known as the Elizabeth line when services begin in 2018, will be fully integrated with London’s existing transport network and will be operated by Transport for London.
  • The Elizabeth line will stretch more than 60 miles / over 100km from Reading and Heathrow in the west through central tunnels across to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east.
  • The new railway - currently being built by Crossrail Ltd. - will stop at 41 accessible stations, 10 newly built and 30 newly upgraded.
  • The first Elizabeth line services through central London will start in late 2018 – an estimated 200 million annual passengers will use Crossrail.
  • The Elizabeth line will serve 41 stations including 10 new stations at Paddington, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Whitechapel, Canary Wharf, Custom House, Woolwich and Abbey Wood.
  • Crossrail will bring an extra 1.5 million people to within 45 minutes of central London and will link London’s key employment, leisure and business districts – Heathrow, West End, the City, Docklands – enabling further economic development.
  • Construction of the new railway will support regeneration across the capital and add an estimated £42bn to the economy of the UK.
  • Over 130 million working hours have been completed on the Crossrail project so far.
Increased capacity:

  • The Elizabeth line will transform rail transport in London and the south east, increasing central London rail capacity by 10% - the largest increase since World War 2. This will reduce congestion and allow for more comfortable journey conditions.
  • Congestion at many London Underground stations will be reduced, even for those that are not on the Elizabeth line route – such as Oxford Circus.
Improved connectivity:

  • The Elizabeth line will improve connectivity: it will make it easier for businesses to move about London, to meet clients and negotiate with suppliers.
  • Moreover, the Elizabeth line will make accessing our major international gateways like London Heathrow more accessible - for instance, the journey time from London Heathrow to the City of London (Liverpool Street) will fall from 55 to 34 minutes.
  • The new railway will increase the number of people who are able to access employment destinations throughout London. This will enable businesses to access the people with the skills they need to be able to compete and succeed, and to open up new employment opportunities for individuals.
  • The Elizabeth line will bring 1.5 million more people within a 45 minutes commute of the existing major employment centres of the West End, the City and Canary Wharf (up from five million currently).
  • This improved connectivity will also be designed to help people with restricted mobility. The new stations will have step-free access from platform to street level and for the majority of interchanges with other London Underground and national rail services: 95% of journeys are forecast to have a step-free origin and destination station.
[...]
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/crossrail-in-numbers

...tunnelling, which is even more expensive than subway construction because of pantograph usage.
What an incredibly odd and misinformed statement. Crossrail is bored to a smaller diameter than Crosstown, and roughly equivalent to the Spadina extension, if not slightly smaller.

(and to anyone wishing to dispute that, don't forget to include the *lining* in your calculation and claim)

Each tunnel is 21 kilometres/13 miles long, 6.2 metres in diameter and up to 40 metres below ground.
Railway tunnels - Crossrail
www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/tunnelling/railway-tunnels/
 
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I think etobicoke and north York will care about scarborough transit details (subway vs lrt) if finch west lrt and eglinton west lrt are cancelled to pay for it
 
^ I hope both Finch West and Eglinton West will get build, especially Finch where lots of money have been invested already.

That said, most of the locals will be indifferent to those lines. They will accept them if built, but ignore their absence otherwise.
 
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Crossrail is a very nice addition .. to London's already massive subway network.

Regarding the tunnel diameters; it is a fair statement that huge GO bi-levels isn't the only kind of trainsets we should be looking for in the RER context. More agile trainsets would help both with keeping down the costs of tunneling, and with supporting high service frequencies needed for intra-city lines.
 
People tend to be less vocal onthings they are neutral or happy about. Vs people who hate something rant on and on and on. Silence doesn't mean people don't want it. They may just assume they are getting it.

ill give an example that surprised me. When Rob Ford brought up the idea of closing Libraries. I never would have thought Libraries were so popular but people came out in big numbers to protest. If it wasn't threatened to be taken away I would have been clueless to how many people use them and like them. People just liked them in silence.
 
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Crossrail is a very nice addition .. to London's already massive subway network.

Regarding the tunnel diameters; it is a fair statement that huge GO bi-levels isn't the only kind of trainsets we should be looking for in the RER context. More agile trainsets would help both with keeping down the costs of tunneling, and with supporting high service frequencies needed for intra-city lines.

Check out what Sydney AU uses for their rail system, which does go underground.
 

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