Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

A station at Lawrence is beyond logical, arguably Eglinton/Brimley too.

Lawrence? Sure. Eglinton/Brimley? Not really, especially since there's a planned LRT extension that would stop there.

Ditto for building the whole thing to Sheppard/Markham or Sheppard/Neilson in one go. There are people there, and surface ridership is high.

The vast, vast majority of suburban subway station usage comes from bus transfers, NOT from walk-ins to the station. Claiming that a station shouldn't be built in the suburbs shouldn't be build because "no one" lives there, at best, shows a fundamentally poor understanding of Toronto's transit network, or at worse is intentionally misleading.

Both of these are true to some extent. Relying on bus transfers for suburban subways makes a lot of sense (and that's how the SSE is planned). Relying on bus transfers for a feeder line like the SRT doesn't make sense, and that's why ridership is so low at every station except the main STC hub. For that reason, an LRT makes a lot more sense north of STC. The LRT would serve as a higher-capacity feeder line that connects directly to the mainline, instead of one network of feeder routes connecting to another feeder route.

 

[44 North]

The vast, vast majority of suburban subway station usage comes from bus transfers, NOT from walk-ins to the station. Claiming that a station shouldn't be built in the suburbs shouldn't be build because "no one" lives there, at best, shows a fundamentally poor understanding of Toronto's transit network, or at worse is intentionally misleading.

Now if you want to talk about feeder routes to those stations having low ridership, we can have an intelligent discussion.

Huh, oh I didn't write that. It was a comment about another poster claiming that inline stations would slow people down, with variations of there being 'practically no one' using them. Not sure if we have projections for inline stations in the various reports, but a station at Lawrence would surely have solid feeder traffic and logically would have acceptable local traffic. There isn't a chasm between Kennedy and SC, surely there'd be sizable usage between that 6km.

Both of these are true to some extent. Relying on bus transfers for suburban subways makes a lot of sense (and that's how the SSE is planned). Relying on bus transfers for a feeder line like the SRT doesn't make sense, and that's why ridership is so low at every station except the main STC hub. For that reason, an LRT makes a lot more sense north of STC. The LRT would serve as a higher-capacity feeder line that connects directly to the mainline, instead of one network of feeder routes connecting to another feeder route.

Yeah but part of the original point being discussed on the previous page about the SRT was that it wasn't supposed to be a "feeder", but rather one part of an unrealized vision for an expansive subway network serving as part of the Line 1 and 2 backbone. Albeit a lighter subway. Not an LRT. With it extended to Malvern, and cohesively incorporated to other lines like Eglinton or Sheppard/Finch, stations at Lawrence and Ellesemere would be more than logical. It only became a feeder white elephant because it was treated as such.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Huh, oh I didn't write that.

Yeah I know. I wasn't addressing anything you said specifically.

 

[smallspy]

Eglinton/Brimley? Not really, especially since there's a planned LRT extension that would stop there.

The two need not be mutually exclusive. The LRT will have several stops before its terminus at Kennedy, and will provide a more "fine grained" level of service than the subway is capable of providing. Think of it as the subway providing express service, and the LRT providing a local service.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[micheal_can]

Now, this would be wishful thinking, but what if they built a second U

Extend the Bloor line to STC under Eglintion and McCowan. Then extend the current Sheppard Subway to STC along Sheppard and McCowan. Then extend the Sheppard Subway to the airport under Sheppard.

You would effectively make a second U and you would fix the Stubway. And you would bring some real transit through Scarborough.

 

[jaybe]

Now, this would be wishful thinking, but what if they built a second U

Extend the Bloor line to STC under Eglintion and McCowan. Then extend the current Sheppard Subway to STC along Sheppard and McCowan. Then extend the Sheppard Subway to the airport under Sheppard.

You would effectively make a second U and you would fix the Stubway. And you would bring some real transit through Scarborough.

As a point of comparison, the STC and Square One are the same distance to Union.

The population density in Scarborough is 3160/sq km.
The population density in Mississauga is 2,440/sq km.

No one is proposing subways be built into or across Mississauga. The continued persistence in proposing subways across sparsely populated Scarborough escapes me. The potential demand is just not there nor will it be there for generations.

Fortunately there are far less costly but effective transit options such as BRT and LRT, supplemented with RER for those that need to get to the core. Scarborough's transit needs can be met without a subway....

 

[W. K. Lis]

Meanwhile, in Paris (the little city in France, not the community in Ontario), from this link:

Paris T3 celebrates ten years

Paris is a city with major emissions concerns; T3a and T3b have helped to remove cars from the roads and establish a ‘green’ belt around the city. (RATP/D. Sutton)

Friday 16 December marks two important milestones for light rail in the French capital: the tenth anniversary of the opening of line T3a (Boulevard Victor – Pont du Garigliano RER station in the 15th arrondissement with Porte de Vincennes metro station in the 12th arrondissement); and the continuation of T3b to Porte d’Asnières.

T3b opened as far as Porte de Vincennes in December 2012 and the combined line currently carries 240 000 passengers each day. The latest 4.3km (2.7-mile) extension to Porte de d’Asnières features eight new stops – including interchanges with metro line 4 at Porte de Clignancourt, line 13 at Porte de Saint-Ouen and the northern extension of line 14 at Porte de Clichy – and offers tramway access to a further 600 000 residents and 300 000 workers in the seven districts the line now covers.

With established urban rail travel between central Paris and the suburbs on radial axes, T3 delivers vital suburban links and also has an important environmental element, creating a ‘green belt’ around the city with large sections of grass track. Around one million passengers are carried on the eight current tramlines in the city each day (two of which use the NTL/Translohr rubber-tyred system), with two new conventional lines under construction – T9 and T10.

P.S. As we saw with St. Clair and Spadina, having grass on a right-of-way seems to be forbidden in Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

It would be nice of they planted grass on the Streetcar ROW. It would make it feel less city and more suburbia.

 

[Cobra]

As a point of comparison, the STC and Square One are the same distance to Union.

The population density in Scarborough is 3160/sq km.
The population density in Mississauga is 2,440/sq km.

No one is proposing subways be built into or across Mississauga. The continued persistence in proposing subways across sparsely populated Scarborough escapes me. The potential demand is just not there nor will it be there for generations.

Fortunately there are far less costly but effective transit options such as BRT and LRT, supplemented with RER for those that need to get to the core. Scarborough's transit needs can be met without a subway....

Mississauga being part of Toronto is news to me

 

[Cobra]

Meanwhile, in Paris (the little city in France, not the community in Ontario), from this link:

Paris T3 celebrates ten years

P.S. As we saw with St. Clair and Spadina, having grass on a right-of-way seems to be forbidden in Toronto.

Paris "inner suburbs" have subways as well. They don't even think that way to begin with. All parts of the city are divided by "arrondissement" and they are all part of Paris, regardless of some parts looking more suburban than other.

St-Denis reminds me more or less of Scarborough and they have subways in that part of the city + tramway.

 

[amnesiajune]

The two need not be mutually exclusive. The LRT will have several stops before its terminus at Kennedy, and will provide a more "fine grained" level of service than the subway is capable of providing. Think of it as the subway providing express service, and the LRT providing a local service.

There would only be two stops between Brimley and Kennedy - one at Falmouth Avenue and another at Midland Avenue. Given that it would be a five minute trip at most, there's no reason to duplicate the service, especially if the LRT is built as an extension of Eglinton rather than a separate line.

 

[amnesiajune]

P.S. As we saw with St. Clair and Spadina, having grass on a right-of-way seems to be forbidden in Toronto.

On Spadina, the downside would be that police and ambulances couldn't use the streetcar ROW to get past traffic. Not sure why they didn't do it on St. Clair though, given that it can't be used by first responders.

 

[Voltz]

Yeah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoke–hub_distribution_paradigm

Imagine if other parts of the city had their public transit truncated like Scarborough does. At Eglinton West, Eglinton and Dundas West you have to get off one subway line that ends and transfer to another for the sake of saving some money in capital expenditures. And because more stops automatically means better service, those suburban subways get a bunch of stops that serve practically no-one. That would be ridiculous, right? So why does it make sense in Scarborough?

That is a false analogy, not how it would have been in Scarborough,

 

[micheal_can]

On Spadina, the downside would be that police and ambulances couldn't use the streetcar ROW to get past traffic. Not sure why they didn't do it on St. Clair though, given that it can't be used by first responders.

You mean they cannot drive on grass? If built right,, they would have the grass at the same height as the tracks so that it is no different than driving on concrete.

 

[OneCity]

s

As a point of comparison, the STC and Square One are the same distance to Union.

The population density in Scarborough is 3160/sq km.
The population density in Mississauga is 2,440/sq km.

No one is proposing subways be built into or across Mississauga. The continued persistence in proposing subways across sparsely populated Scarborough escapes me. The potential demand is just not there nor will it be there for generations.

Fortunately there are far less costly but effective transit options such as BRT and LRT, supplemented with RER for those that need to get to the core. Scarborough's transit needs can be met without a subway....

Yes they are close in proximity... But only

One is considered part of Toronto and on Toronto's transit network. Only One has been neglected from all levels of government for transit infrastructure as only One has multiple highways to attract business investment. Only One has a central focused Municipal Growth plan which is reviewed consistently to ensure attractiveness and competitiveness. Only One has a proposed seamless north-south LRT line proposed. And last we would all be naïve to believe they don't build subway stops to outer Toronto suburbs. And just like Vaughan only One of these areas will have no fight to stop it from happening when that time comes.

Scarborough's transit needs will certainly be met with a lot of BRT and LRT with a subway station in the City Centre connecting flawlessly to the rest of the City.