Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

As a whole the city and surrounding cities are probably better served by a subway extension than an LRT which currently appears to be the alternative.

That's the key. The only alternative that was proposed was the continuous Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown. It was widely accepted by the citizens of Scarborough and the City as a whole. The only complaint was cost, but they did not look for options to reduce costs and are now actually spending more than the old proposal.

 

[44 North]

That's the key. The only alternative that was proposed was the continuous Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown. It was widely accepted by the citizens of Scarborough and the City as a whole. The only complaint was cost, but they did not look for options to reduce costs and are now actually spending more than the old proposal.

Exactly. Had they brought the cost down it would've been brilliant. We'd have a 30km subway line under construction today. It wouldn't be "slow" or "awkward", or some kind of gesture to the poor as per some suggestions... it'd be a 30km subway line.

 

[amnesiajune]

The only alternative that was proposed was the continuous Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown.

The obvious problem with that is that it would've fed into Yonge. If the Don Mills LRT had stayed on the table then there could've been one line from Scarborough Centre, along Eglinton and down to Pape, and another that would've travelled from Mount Dennis to Don Mills or Kennedy.

There are definitely a lot of decent ways to connect Kennedy and Scarborough Centre with an LRT. The current proposal just isn't one of them. The only good parts of it are beyond STC, and the city can still build an LRT line (or network of lines) that originates from STC and travels north & east.

 

[micheal_can]

The obvious problem with that is that it would've fed into Yonge. If the Don Mills LRT had stayed on the table then there could've been one line from Scarborough Centre, along Eglinton and down to Pape, and another that would've travelled from Mount Dennis to Don Mills or Kennedy.

There are definitely a lot of decent ways to connect Kennedy and Scarborough Centre with an LRT. The current proposal just isn't one of them. The only good parts of it are beyond STC, and the city can still build an LRT line (or network of lines) that originates from STC and travels north & east.

I wonder, if a line from the STC through Kennedy and then along Kingston Rd to Union/Queen would be even better.
That would make a real good DRL.

 

[WislaHD]

Exactly. Had they brought the cost down it would've been brilliant. We'd have a 30km subway line under construction today. It wouldn't be "slow" or "awkward", or some kind of gesture to the poor as per some suggestions... it'd be a 30km subway line.

Slow would be factually incorrect too. Even if LRT is slower than subway, from Kennedy Station to reaching Line 1, the LRT would be quicker than the Danforth subway.

Once at Yonge, the transfer at Eglinton should be less crowded than at Bloor-Yonge too.

You would save time on both traveling and in transfering if we had the 30km Crosstown line.

 

[amnesiajune]

Even if LRT is slower than subway, from Kennedy Station to reaching Line 1, the LRT would be quicker than the Danforth subway.

The plain number doesn't mean anything. What matters is whether the speed reduction of stops results in better service. On Bloor and Danforth, it absolutely does - there are a lot of people living around there so it's good to have 3 stops every 2 km and put the whole street within walking distance of a stop. On the SRT, you aren't putting many people within walking distance at the Lawrence, Ellesmere and Midland stops (especially the latter two), as evidenced by their horrendously low ridership. Nearly 80% of the line's ridership gets nothing from those stops except a slower commute.

You would save time on both traveling and in transfering if we had the 30km Crosstown line.

Sure, but nobody's proposing that right now. The two competing proposals are a subway extension and a modernized & extended SRT.

 

[WislaHD]

The plain number doesn't mean anything. What matters is whether the speed reduction of stops results in better service. On Bloor and Danforth, it absolutely does - there are a lot of people living around there so it's good to have 3 stops every 2 km and put the whole street within walking distance of a stop. On the SRT, you aren't putting many people within walking distance at the Lawrence, Ellesmere and Midland stops (especially the latter two), as evidenced by their horrendously low ridership. Nearly 80% of the line's ridership gets nothing from those stops except a slower commute.

Sure, but I was speaking from the starting point of Kennedy Station.

Sure, but nobody's proposing that right now. The two competing proposals are a subway extension and a modernized & extended SRT.

Alas.

However, this story has yet to be concluded. The subway extension (and LRT) has been subjected to a cost increase in recent months. This will open up the debate once again.

 

[Hopkins123]

Sure, but I was speaking from the starting point of Kennedy Station.

Alas.

However, this story has yet to be concluded. The subway extension (and LRT) has been subjected to a cost increase in recent months. This will open up the debate once again.

It is the song that never ends, it just goes and on my friend. Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, but they'll continue singing it forever just because...

 

[amnesiajune]

The subway extension (and LRT) has been subjected to a cost increase in recent months. This will open up the debate once again.

For as long as Josh Matlow is willing to beat every last drop of blood out of a dead horse... Sure. But the project itself isn't going to be changed unless the costs get so high and a better alternative is proposed, so that subway supporters are willing to support a non-subway alternative.

 

[44 North]

Most are hoping we can bring the per km costs down here and for other subway projects. Right now every project is approaching obscene prices, to the point of not making sense. I just don't get how one can support SSE, but not support inline stations because there's "no one" there. A station at Lawrence is beyond logical, arguably Eglinton/Brimley too. Ditto for building the whole thing to Sheppard/Markham or Sheppard/Neilson in one go. There are people there, and surface ridership is high.

 

[crs1026]

It's terrifying how this debate goes around and around, and actually gets better each time.

Somewhere along the line I convinced myself that extending Line 2 to STC as subway made sense as some sort of resolution to Scarborough's political grievances, which I really didn't see first hand but was willing to accept on faith.

Since then, the proposed line has gotten to be deeper than any past subway, is guaranteed to be expropriation free (unlike any past subway) and now the line is likely to bend back west as a Sheppard extension. It seems a Chevrolet subway project has been turned into a Cadillac..... a 90 degree turn in one degree increments.

Just for sake of argument..... would it cost less to simply do a cut and cover extension of Line 2 up some unspecified main artery, notwithstanding the dirt and noise and disruption? If so, maybe we ought to revert to that plan. If it was good enough for Bloor-Danforth......

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Most are hoping we can bring the per km costs down here and for other subway projects. Right now every project is approaching obscene prices, to the point of not making sense. I just don't get how one can support SSE, but not support inline stations because there's "no one" there. A station at Lawrence is beyond logical, arguably Eglinton/Brimley too. Ditto for building the whole thing to Sheppard/Markham or Sheppard/Neilson in one go. There are people there, and surface ridership is high.

The vast, vast majority of suburban subway station usage comes from bus transfers, NOT from walk-ins to the station. Claiming that a station shouldn't be built in the suburbs shouldn't be build because "no one" lives there, at best, shows a fundamentally poor understanding of Toronto's transit network, or at worse is intentionally misleading.

Now if you want to talk about feeder routes to those stations having low ridership, we can have an intelligent discussion.

 

[44 North]

Just for sake of argument..... would it cost less to simply do a cut and cover extension of Line 2 up some unspecified main artery, notwithstanding the dirt and noise and disruption? If so, maybe we ought to revert to that plan. If it was good enough for Bloor-Danforth......

Exactly. Let's see the numbers. Plannerticians have gotten too far involved with these things that the John Q is left to believe anything they're told. Looking at old reports for various projects it's amazing to see how the TTC used present low cost solutions, with the caveat that Planning would most likely prefer the higher cost ones. But over the years those lower cost solutions aren't presented anymore. It's all deep bore, and now aircraft carrier sized Frank Gehry stations. There's no doubt in my mind we can cut the costs significantly, while keeping a similar below grade routing.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Cut + cover on McCowan. The construction of this is more complicated and costly than it should be.

 

[crs1026]

Since when is the line likely to go to Sheppard? I thought this was just wishful thinking on the forum.

I wish! It's a change being sought by Councillor DeBearemaeker. It got a skeptical response here on this forum, but Mr DeB does not go away easily. I give it a better than 50% chance of working its way into reality.

- Paul