Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

And apparently the fact that it's in Scarborough means nobody has the right to question whether this enormous cost is justified by the meagre incremental ridership without hysterical allegations that they hate the suburbs.

Trust me they have questioned. Over and over and over and over. Especially those Politicians in current subway ridings. Hopefully we are done. Scarborough is just expected to pretend that these type of projects have not gone on in every other main areas of the City in the past. Its too bad they didn't do it right years ago. Would have saved alot of time and money.. But here we are starting over.

Its not about hating the suburbs. Its just not understanding or just not respecting its growth & integration in this City. Now that SCC is going to be on the main transit trunk of the City we can talk BRT's, LRT and Streetcars, etc...

Just because some politicians and planners decided years ago to run a separate RT technology through a "cheap" route doesn't make it any good for the future. The disjointed elbow line thru industrial land was a joke. It failed miserably in many ways.

Im more interested in reading about new subway route designs and number of stops at the moment rather than read the about the dead horse taking the same old beating

 

[ssiguy2]

Maybe we give Vancouver its own thread? Similar technology, not similar circumstances

The cost of building the subway is the cost of connecting its largest suburban Centre to the same infrastructure TORONTO built to other main core and similar suburban Centres. The cost is what it is. This isn't Vancouver.

You are of course right, it isn't Vancouver because in Vancouver they would never entertain the idea of shutting down a functioning rapid transit rail line to replace it with another at 8X the price.

You are forgetting that if SRT was rebuilt and hence saving $2.5 billion, that would have been enough money to extend the entire line all the way to Union. Instead of having an extension to a much slower line which still doesn't get you downtown, you could have a very fast and comfortable trip right to Union. Operational costs of course would also be much lower as per-person SkyTrain uses far less electricity than standard third rail, due to less contact with the rails themselves the tracks last about 20% longer before needing replacement, and of course SRT was designed and built as an automated system which saves drastically on labour costs. Of course the fact that fact that the maintenance and operation centres are also built offers even more savings.

This is what has always puzzled me about the SRT debate...........Scarborough residents seemed determined to fight for the most expensive option available which will be considerable slower than the cheapest.

BTW........could we please stop the crap about SkyTrain not working in the snow. That's a bunch of crap with heated rails and the new train designs. The vehicles you guys are riding were built and designed when libraries were still using card catalogs and if someone said "www" you would think they had a stuttering disability.

 

[pstogios]

And apparently the fact that it's in Scarborough means nobody has the right to question whether this enormous cost is justified by the meagre incremental ridership without hysterical allegations that they hate the suburbs.

I questioned those people making hysterics.
I got banned. Thanks UT.

 

[Dan416]

Those MK111 trains look great but clearly not "world class" enough for Torontonians.

Mk III (3) not Mk 111 (one-hundred eleven).

 

[CapitalSeven]

The shallow, cut and cover tunnel that is slightly too narrow for the Mark III is 400 feet long (1/50 of the length of the subway extension). And Bombardier also builds the rig with standard propulsion, so snow is not an issue.

 

[coffey1]

So if we wanted to continue a terribly designed dis-jointed RT line then Mark III would be a good option for a replacement. Thankfully we're not.

 

[rbt]

if you read the news articles this turns out to be a falsehood pushed by Millers team for the LRT conversion.

The $360 million and the 8 month downtime includes the cost of rebuilding the tunnels to fit Mark 2/3's

The high-level details start around page 60 in the PDF (numbered page 40 in the footer).

https://web.archive.org/web/2014041...ca/srtstudy/pdf/srt-strategic-plan-report.pdf

Both tunnel modifications and custom vehicles (Mark IIA) were considered.

One oversight (IMO) is while a custom Mark II vehicle was considered which might fit the tunnel a similar option for a custom LRT vehicle was not considered. A dual-mode option (3rd rail in tunnel, pantograph elsewhere) may have been affordable and involved very little downtime.

Tunnel modifications for the Mark II model included widening the tunnel with no change in height. Tunnel modifications for the LRT model involved changing the height of the tunnel; no widening was necessary. Changing the tunnel height is the more invasive of the 2 options.


Section 8.1 (Conclusions) point #3 and point #4 look at future expansion:

"The RT technology still leaves the TTCwith a unique technology that, due to widely held perceptions in Toronto regarding the desirability of the technology itself (despite successful applications throughout Vancouver and elsewhere), probably has less potential for network expansion (other than to Malvern in the protected right-of-way) than a network of LRT and surface, streetcar based, transit priority services on arterial roads"

"With higher capital investment and a considerably longer disruption of service due to construction, conversion of the existing Scarborough RT to a multiple unit LRT technology offers greater potential for over all system expansion, consistent with the transit priority goals reflected in the City of Toronto’s Official Plan, the TTC’s Ridership Growth Strategy and the joint TTC/City Building a Transit City plan."
​

AFIACS, Soberman says here that if you want to expand the SRT deeper into Scarborough to give a priority to the LRT option. So, Miller, having proposed an extension to Malvern, was following Soberman's direction pretty much to the letter.


Point #5 seems to encourage laying and preserving LRT ROWs simultaneous with the SRT conversion.

"There is considerable risk, however, that a decision to proceed with the higher cost LRT alternative will not be accompanied by a serious commitment to build on this technology to expand the surface network of right-of-way"​

Final recommendations appear to be based on the assumption zero network expansion will occur; which, after much bickering, seems to be the final solution albeit in a much more expensive format.

 

[BurlOak]

What a shame.
.
With some engineering modifications to the current RT track, we could have these beauties on the existing RT running right now, and an extension to Cenntenial College and Malvern, all for a fraction of the cost of the subway or LRT, and without disrupting service on the existing RT for 3 years like the LRT conversion would have.

Too bad Miller, Ford, and now Tory have to try to create legacies for themselves and disrupt proper transit planning.

Strange that a Metrolinx project, and no blame goes to the Province.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So if we wanted to continue a terribly designed dis-jointed RT line then Mark III would be a good option for a replacement. Thankfully we're not.

Fair enough.

 

[robmausser]

The high-level details start around page 60 in the PDF (numbered page 40 in the footer).

https://web.archive.org/web/2014041...ca/srtstudy/pdf/srt-strategic-plan-report.pdf

Both tunnel modifications and custom vehicles (Mark IIA) were considered.

One oversight (IMO) is while a custom Mark II vehicle was considered which might fit the tunnel a similar option for a custom LRT vehicle was not considered. A dual-mode option (3rd rail in tunnel, pantograph elsewhere) may have been affordable and involved very little downtime.

Tunnel modifications for the Mark II model included widening the tunnel with no change in height. Tunnel modifications for the LRT model involved changing the height of the tunnel; no widening was necessary. Changing the tunnel height is the more invasive of the 2 options.


Section 8.1 (Conclusions) point #3 and point #4 look at future expansion:

"The RT technology still leaves the TTCwith a unique technology that, due to widely held perceptions in Toronto regarding the desirability of the technology itself (despite successful applications throughout Vancouver and elsewhere), probably has less potential for network expansion (other than to Malvern in the protected right-of-way) than a network of LRT and surface, streetcar based, transit priority services on arterial roads"

"With higher capital investment and a considerably longer disruption of service due to construction, conversion of the existing Scarborough RT to a multiple unit LRT technology offers greater potential for over all system expansion, consistent with the transit priority goals reflected in the City of Toronto’s Official Plan, the TTC’s Ridership Growth Strategy and the joint TTC/City Building a Transit City plan."
​

AFIACS, Soberman says here that if you want to expand the SRT deeper into Scarborough to give a priority to the LRT option. So, Miller, having proposed an extension to Malvern, was following Soberman's direction pretty much to the letter.


Point #5 seems to encourage laying and preserving LRT ROWs simultaneous with the SRT conversion.

"There is considerable risk, however, that a decision to proceed with the higher cost LRT alternative will not be accompanied by a serious commitment to build on this technology to expand the surface network of right-of-way"​

Final recommendations appear to be based on the assumption zero network expansion will occur; which, after much bickering, seems to be the final solution albeit in a much more expensive format.

Thanks for this, excellent post.

Its laughable, the armchair engineers on here who keep repeating this phrase "But Mark 2/3's dont fit in the tunnel! Jet fuel can't melt steel beams!"

They were planning and needed to modify the tunnel for LRT, there is no reason they can't/couldn't do the same for the Mark 2/3's.

Such weird logic in some people.

 

[ssiguy2]

MKII trains are not longer produced, only MKIII speaks volumes about how the TTC allowed the RT to rot.

I can't believe that one little overpass is causing so much hysteria. This idea not to spend $20 million to fix and overpass so to replace it totally will cost $3 billion is truly bizarre. This of course is all Miler's doing.
Metrolinx, before Miller time, wanted to upgrade the line and make it continuous down Eglinton so Toronto would have a RT with new trains and a full subway down Eglinton for less than it's paying for the LRT. Miller's LRT or nothing was just as childish as Ford's subways or nothing. Ford wanted subways or nothing because he knew nothing about transit or urban planning and Miller wanted LRT or nothing because he didn't want to offend his voting base and financial backers who dreaded the idea of a automated {ie no labour} transit system.

 

[UD2]

Toronto's MKIs all have 1 operator on the trains, which will also be the case of TTC subways once ATC implementation is completed. No sense believing that the MK3s would be any different if they became reality. I'm not sure where the factual basis of your comments come from.

 

[BurlOak]

Metrolinx, before Miller time, wanted to upgrade the line and make it continuous down Eglinton so Toronto would have a RT with new trains and a full subway down Eglinton for less than it's paying for the LRT. Miller's LRT or nothing was just as childish as Ford's subways or nothing. Ford wanted subways or nothing because he knew nothing about transit or urban planning....

Ford wanted the exact same thing - a continuous SRT and Eglinton line. I agree that he knew nothing about transit, but he got the big things right. The Liberals, through Metrolinx, didn't want Conservative Ford to succeed so the opted for the expensive and inconvenient LRT solution. Ford and his people did not have the brains to realize that they were being sabatoged by by Liberals.

And I think Miller wanted LRT for vanity, not union support. If he just built on the network, he is one of many who has done so. If he brings in a revolutionary new technology, it would be his baby in perpetuity.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ford wanted the exact same thing - a continuous SRT and Eglinton line. I agree that he knew nothing about transit, but he got the big things right. The Liberals, through Metrolinx, didn't want Conservative Ford to succeed so the opted for the expensive and inconvenient LRT solution. Ford and his people did not have the brains to realize that they were being sabatoged by by Liberals.

And I think Miller wanted LRT for vanity, not union support. If he just built on the network, he is one of many who has done so. If he brings in a revolutionary new technology, it would be his baby in perpetuity.

Ford wanted subways, subways, subways. The LRT was not expensive, it would would provided inexpensive and more convenient rapid transit to more people.

Rob Ford was clueless about LRT and transit in general. Period.

 

[coffey1]

Ford wanted subways, subways, subways. The LRT was not expensive, it would would provided inexpensive and more convenient rapid transit to more people.

Rob Ford was clueless about LRT and transit in general. Period.

And Matlow and Miller were & continue to be clueless about integration. Period.

They like to throw out "intelligent" numbers. Unfortunately those number are only legitimate to those that pretend the current Subway system doesn't exist. The main City system which has been a key driver to connect and grow key areas of the City's core and other key suburban centers. Too continue to push a something so strong that most people of Scarborough are just not proud of. It's sheer ignorance.

LRT/BRT is great In the right locations & when you consider fair integration into the City's current network. The LRT designers blew the Sheppard integration terribly & the Province refused to fund the SMLRT and scaled back Sheppard. Too many residents out here were ignored even if you add a couple stops to the SLRT . No numbers matter when those Politicians that have a high level of transit in their riding choose to and strongly ignore the existing system

This is why you have Ford like Politicians. Ford or Tory doesn't have to "know transit" Miller sure as hell didn't. He was a one trick pony. Ford and Tory just needed to acknowledge that outside Politicians are clueless & not listening to the various Scarborough residents concerns. If its cheap, poorly integrated, hacked in Band-Aid solutions then just build the subway extension. We can do the rest in another era with some more common sense towards integration of a City network.