Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

The Lawrence station has to be ten (yes, ten) stories underground due to the subsurface conditions.

All the TTC is willing to do (this stated at the meeting today) is design the route so there is a "level, straight" section where a station might be achievable some day. Roughing in the headwalls would represent 70% of the cost of the station, so that isn't an option.

Even the cost of fire exits (and ventilation shafts) must be horrific.

- Paul

I cannot see going under Highland Creek any harder than going under the Don River. When ECLRT was proposed to tunnel under the West Don and directly to Don Mills, the cost of that station was reported to be $60M.

As for fire exits, it would either be part of the station. Actually, you could say 1 less fire exit would be needed because the station takes the place of 1 fire exit.

 

[Rainforest]

Anyone know where to find a rocket scientist to design a subway on the SRT corridor? Problem solved here

Yeah, the objections against the SRT options in the latest report do not sound convincing. They only considered the "loop" option, and even then did not give the actual cost estimate, only mentioned that it will be "more expensive" than McCowan.

Looks like the planners want to avoid the SRT shutdown at all costs, even if the saving from the surface alignment will be much greater than the cost of running the replacement buses.

 

[coffey1]

Much like Scarborough labels everyone in downtown as elitists?

No certainly not Everyone whatsoever. We identify the group with the Political power who run Politicians and the media. People like you are (likely) just part of the herd that lives off of and defends their golden transit land as if it was built by God (and not BS Politics).

The Elitists (Rich and Powerful) of Toronto reside and stash capital in and around the land of fancy transit. They have ownership & control of the media propaganda power in the Star & Metroland media. Scarborough does not have this muscle & unfortunately cant debate the narrative so you are seeing the growing angst in the polls. We're not a bunch of free Burger loving rednecks (although there are some ) We are a massive diverse area of Toronto which has been without a loud voice Politically for far too long and don't care to be told what the best (cheapest & segregated) option is by a bunch of transit rich outsiders.

There is rich, middle class, poor and then Elite and we get that. We are only talking about the Elite when we say Elite.

The media assault has done far more damage than many know or want to believe. Integrated solutions would have been useful. But insults, slanted facts & talking down from the rich transit land perch while promoting a segregated, cheap plan, of a separate technology is rightfully not well received. The SLRT and Sheppard LRT hacks were second rate designs. Surely they were an improvement for many Scarborough commuters out here but it wasn't helpful to enough and not the legacy we should be building. The SMLRT makes a TON of sense and many now save the Sheppard LRT as being more useful as a local loop.

All of us want transit now but also many of us want to see a better future for Scarborough even if it has to be fought for.

 

[BurlOak]

I hate to propose alternatives, because it just leads to endless debates, but maybe there is a better use of $3.2B. What is the main goal - to connect STC to Downtown with a continuous grade-separated route.

1. Continue the SRT elevated from Midland to Vic Park, along Ellesmere.
2. Elevate above the CPR corridor to the East Don, and south to SpanBridge.
3. Elevate through Flemingdon and Thorncliffe.
4. Follow the Don Valley west side to Bloor
5. Cut west to Parliament or (preferably) Sherbourne (because it has a DRL station).
6. Elevate south to Front Street.
7. Elevate along Front Street (possibly Wellington) to the Ex.

This transit line would be about 22km in length. Multiply by $150M/km, and you get $3.3B.

So for the same cost as the 1 stop subway extension, you get a full transit line that serves a number of spots along Ellesmere (in Scarborough), Flemingdon and Thorncliffe. Downtown and Exhibition.
This would intersect with ECLRT at Wynford (not the greatest connection), DRL at Thorncliffe, Bloor (at Sherborne), DRL at Sherborne/Queen, and Line 1.

 

[superman]

Scarborough needs to be bought off with some kind of plan in order for us to put in revenue tools for the Relief Line.

Too bad Miller's team branded the SRT refresh a LRT and lumped it with the Sheppard/Finch surface LRTs when it's a true-grade separated line. We may be spending millions now just because of the LRT term, when really it's more of an "elevated subway".

What does the board think is a palatable option for both Scarborough and the downtown councillors to settle this?

I'm thinking:
- somehow going to a skytrain technology to possible save construction time / get away from the "LRT" moniker / show the international examples of this & sell it as not tram style
- throw another bone in... Skytrain on Eglinton east ("we understand your concerns about traffic and we will not affect roads anywhere in Scarborough"!) or some kind of Sheppard Subway extension above ground or partially to Vic Park?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I hate to propose alternatives, because it just leads to endless debates, but maybe there is a better use of $3.2B. What is the main goal - to connect STC to Downtown with a continuous grade-separated route.

1. Continue the SRT elevated from Midland to Vic Park, along Ellesmere.
2. Elevate above the CPR corridor to the East Don, and south to SpanBridge.
3. Elevate through Flemingdon and Thorncliffe.
4. Follow the Don Valley west side to Bloor
5. Cut west to Parliament or (preferably) Sherbourne (because it has a DRL station).
6. Elevate south to Front Street.
7. Elevate along Front Street (possibly Wellington) to the Ex.

This transit line would be about 22km in length. Multiply by $150M/km, and you get $3.3B.

So for the same cost as the 1 stop subway extension, you get a full transit line that serves a number of spots along Ellesmere (in Scarborough), Flemingdon and Thorncliffe. Downtown and Exhibition.
This would intersect with ECLRT at Wynford (not the greatest connection), DRL at Thorncliffe, Bloor (at Sherborne), DRL at Sherborne/Queen, and Line 1.

View attachment 79414

Why not just run a spur line of the Relief Line along the route?

 

[Tuck]

Buy Scarborough off with this (AKA the original plan, drawn on a pretty map so everyone can see just how good it was):

And then build the DRL as intended.

RE the idea above - seems to rely on a lot of elevated? Isn't that politically dead in this city? I mean, it'd be nice if all these LRTs were elevated and grade separated, but it just won't fly.

EDIT: To be clear, I did not make the above image. I do not know who did. Found it on google.

 

[Towered]

The subway either gets resolved or your likely to see Ford Nation 2.0. 80% of the vote to Scarborough subway supporters and many of the Tory supporters were just scared to vote for their candidate in fear of Ford 2.0.

If Tory caves... Do you really think its going to turn out the way you like? You'll likely want to pop your head back In the sand for 4 atleast more years.

You think the circus is bad now. I truly don't want to see it.

White Elephant LOL. You guys are too much. How about we just look at ways to improve the current subway plan the best we can & move forward.

Newsflash: Rob Ford is dead.

 

[am29]

It's ridiculous how the media comes swarming like piranhas attacking Scarborough. It's due for transit improvement. The SRT was a big fail the alignment for that goes through Scarborough's ghost employment lands. Scarborough really needs to be connected to the rest of Toronto because guess what, it is part of TORONTO. It's not it's own autonomous municipality. If it wasn't part of Toronto it would have seen on par or more development Mississauga has seen. I spent my entire childhood in Scarborough you really can live there without a car. That is why I live downtown now. Transit. Let's get it right this time.

 

[Tuck]

It's ridiculous how the media comes swarming like piranhas attacking Scarborough. It's due for transit improvement. The SRT was a big fail the alignment for that goes through Scarborough's ghost employment lands. Scarborough really needs to be connected to the rest of Toronto because guess what, it is part of TORONTO. It's not it's own autonomous municipality. If it wasn't part of Toronto it would have seen on par or more development Mississauga has seen. I spent my entire childhood in Scarborough you really can live there without a car. That is why I live downtown now. Transit. Let's get it right this time.

No one is saying "Don't build transit in Scarborough." We just want them to build the right transit, and get the best bang for our buck.

Fund and build all 3 Scarborough LRTs. Thats billions of dollars.

Not billions of dollars wasted but billions of dollars well spent on transit that covers all of scarborough rather than a tiny portion of it.

 

[BurlOak]

Why not just run a spur line of the Relief Line along the route?

Because I think that DRL still needs to go north (to Finch?) to better relieve Yonge and half service (i.e. half north, half east) won't do it.

 

[superman]

It's a good point that going back to a elevated RT at all would be challenging for the SRT, but remember under the original Ford plan the SRT was elevated and connected to an underground Eglinton and that seemed bought off on.

Honestly showing any map with 3 LRT lines is DOA to some counsellors, key provincial leaders, and citizens especially when the lines were already talked about for 5+ years now. if we need to get taxes passed to fund the DRL/Waterfront, we need the whole city bought in including Scarborough.... Which means we need some kind of compromise idea.

Buy Scarborough off with this (AKA the original plan, drawn on a pretty map so everyone can see just how good it was):

And then build the DRL as intended.

RE the idea above - seems to rely on a lot of elevated? Isn't that politically dead in this city? I mean, it'd be nice if all these LRTs were elevated and grade separated, but it just won't fly.

EDIT: To be clear, I did not make the above image. I do not know who did. Found it on google.

 

[BurlOak]

Problem is,

1. First group want LRT or nothing else to revive the David Miller legacy.
2. Second group wants transit that will get them re-elected in Scarborough and Scarborough sympathetic boroughs.

Then you have city staff, planners, etc. who try to satisfy whichever of the above groups have power.

There is nobody asking how this transit line can best serve Scarborough.

 

[Tulse]

There is nobody asking how this transit line can best serve Scarborough.

I'd argue that that includes a lot of Scarborough citizens as well, who are more concerned with what Scarborough "deserves" than what it actually needs.

 

[BurlOak]

The average "Joe" on the street is not expected to be a transit expert. They do know that of the subway extension or the discontinuous LRT, the subway is preferable. Until a better solution comes around, they will continue to support the subway.