Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Tulse]

They do know that of the subway extension or the discontinuous LRT, the subway is preferable.

No, that is simply not true -- building a one-stop subway instead of a multiple-stop LRT that serves more people, all just to avoid a transfer, isn't preferable, at least if one is concerned with actually improving transit in Scarborough and not some notion of "respect".

 

[ksun]

The average "Joe" on the street is not expected to be a transit expert. They do know that of the subway extension or the discontinuous LRT, the subway is preferable. Until a better solution comes around, they will continue to support the subway.

Do they know that most of them don't live anywhere close to that dreamed subway stop and that they would need a bus to get there? Or are they pretending as long as a subway is built, they can simply walk to the station and ride to downtown?

I just fail to see how a one stop (or even 4 stop subway) is better than a 18 stop LRT, which is also cheaper. A better solution? We already have one, more than one actually.

 

[Cobra]

Can we stop with the condescending tone? It's not like the city has been perfect at selling it to them over the years either, and no, the Star didn't help at all.

 

[coffey1]

Problem is,

1. First group want LRT or nothing else to revive the David Miller legacy.
2. Second group wants transit that will get them re-elected in Scarborough and Scarborough sympathetic boroughs.

Then you have city staff, planners, etc. who try to satisfy whichever of the above groups have power.

There is nobody asking how this transit line can best serve Scarborough.

I'd argue that that includes a lot of Scarborough citizens as well, who are more concerned with what Scarborough "deserves" than what it actually needs.

Its the Politicians who have screwed this up not the CITIZENS. Scarborough Citizens have many differing concerns depending where they reside.

Citizens can only vote on the best of polarizing plans at hand. And for the most part (until now) its been a one "technology" to fix all debate led by Polarizing Poltico's on both sides. Scarborough doesn't "deserve" to be told what's best by those with subways and streetcars and the don't deserve a segregated network.

The 3 bill for a one stop subway extension is certainly absurd. But it wasn't CITIZENS that planned that. And there are other reasonable solutions which don't involve Transfer City if the Politicians choose to explore. So if this was just an attempt to try to revert back to the LRT its not happening. Better to stop pointing fingers and find solutions.

Its not rocket science to connect a surface subway on the LRT route. Does it cost more than the LR? Ssurely. That much more? Not compared to the 1stop McCowan line. The Poltico's already knew it would cost a bit more so tried to push the SLRT while they had power. The people of Scarborough have made it clear since that this cheap option is not well receive.

People like to point STC struggles for development. The RT is not attractive, the route is not optimal and a segregated technology is not good planning for a supposed Growth area in Toronto. Period. has to be improved & although needed adding 3 stops doesn't fix the problem that can easily be resolved by compromising & making this a direct Connection into Toronto's backbone

It's a Toronto Political problem in general that needs to find some common ground. Not a Citizen problem.

 

[ksun]

Can we stop with the condescending tone? It's not like the city has been perfect at selling it to them over the years either, and no, the Star didn't help at all.

The city should not need to "sell" it to them. A transit plan is supposed to make transportation work more efficiently, not to make the people feel "respected". It is they who keep playing the victim of "Scarborough doesn't have subways" - I don't even know where that comes from considering it is has far more stations than Etobicoke.

Why would the LRT plan need to be sold? It has a lot more stops, serving far more people, and cost a lot less. A 12 year old would know it is better than their dreamed subway. In all honesty practically speaking, I don't even think Scarborough "deserves" a LRT considering the layout of the area and the density. Buses should suffice. In today's world, you can't have two story singe family houses with garages AND subway within walking distance. It simply makes no sense. Transit funding should be given to areas where density warrants. Some areas of the city will of course be under-served by rapid transit and rightly so. Just because it is part of the city of Toronto doesn't mean it deserves subway connection and should have the same kind of service other areas do. This is not how it should work.

It's a Toronto Political problem in general that needs to find some common ground. Not a Citizen problem.

I don't agree. It is the citizens who voted for their politicians, and each politician play whatever card they have to please its voters. You can't be a voter and not be held accountable for what representative you elect. The politicians only have so much power that is given to them.

 

[coffey1]

The city should not need to "sell" it to them. A transit plan is supposed to make transportation work more efficiently, not to make the people feel "respected". It is they who keep playing the victim of "Scarborough doesn't have subways" - I don't even know where that comes from considering it is has far more stations than Etobicoke.

Why would the LRT plan need to be sold? It has a lot more stops, serving far more people, and cost a lot less. A 12 year old would know it is better than their dreamed subway. In all honesty practically speaking, I don't even think Scarborough "deserves" a LRT considering the layout of the area and the density. Buses should suffice. In today's world, you can't have two story singe family houses with garages AND subway within walking distance. It simply makes no sense. Transit funding should be given to areas where density warrants. Some areas of the city will of course be under-served by rapid transit and rightly so. Just because it is part of the city of Toronto doesn't mean it deserves subway connection and should have the same kind of service other areas do. This is not how it should work.

You can only see a City with downtown and suburbs as it is today in the future. I see something much more connected and cohesive for a healthier future

let's go back a few decades and look at the areas around all the current stops to review density compared to STC. Id say we could even remove some to save some cash if we use your metric. And please don't compare one transit neglected suburb to another. They both have large areas unconnected to the City

Ill surprisingly agree with you in that BRT should have been best for all areas except STC. And that goes for Hamilton, Mississauga, Vaughan etc...But that wasn't Scarborough's decision. So tell us when that plan gets tabled?

 

[Cobra]

The city should not need to "sell" it to them.

It's a democracy. They have a right to their opinions and the "selling" really was meant to be "consultation". So talking about "consultations", yes the city has been very poor at it in regard of Scarborough. I've been to multiple of those Transit City consultation and the sheer tone and barely concealed condescending attitude they had towards those citizen was a indeed a surprise. None of their worries, opinion and critics mattered.

I must say that Metrolinx is doing a far better job at it that when those consultations were under Miller and Giambrone. Be frustrated all you want, they have legitimate reasons for their skepticism and it is the city's duty to address them and to listen to it's citizen. Did I say give them what they want? NO

I said the tone must change and stop using failed politicans words as a mirror of what most of Scarborough are saying.

They want a fast, efficient and reliable line. Last time the city and the province tried to give them one it was the ill-conceived SRT which the city shamelessly abandon to ruin. The ICTS is a proven technology that works all around the world and right here in Canada, yet the TTC and the province failed Scarborough.

So yes, the city must do a better job at reassuring them and yes, their concerns are warranted.

A transit plan is supposed to make transportation work more efficiently, not to make the people feel "respected". It is they who keep playing the victim of "Scarborough doesn't have subways" - I don't even know where that comes from considering it is has far more stations than Etobicoke.

Point your fingers at those clowns at city hall and leave the citizens out of it.
Also, Etobicoke didn't inherited a flawed SRT that the city abandoned to decay, Scarborough did.

• The City didn't maintain the SRT leading to its decay, unreliability and overcapacity
• Ill-conceived Kennedy transfer
• Miller council turning down the TTC plan to rebuild the RT with MkII trains just so he could get his pet project Transit City at over triple the cost for political reason
• The flip-flopping killing the MOU linking it to Eglinton
• 3 stop? 1 Stop? Smarttrack? LRT?

You're damn right this city has been disrespectful to Scarborough because they used their citizens as a political opportunity instead of just appropriately planning the best system that is adequate for Scarborough. Yet here you are pointing figure at citizens while refusing to address how this city politicians are responsible for this.

Why would the LRT plan need to be sold? It has a lot more stops, serving far more people, and cost a lot less. A 12 year old would know it is better than their dreamed subway.

As pointed above, last time a new technology was forced on Scarborough, it was a disaster. They haven't forgot that. It's not that they don't buy the benefits of the LRT, they have no faith in the TTC and our politicians to not repeat what happened with the SRT. So yeah, this is a case where taking their time to not only explain why LRT is better is warranted, but they have a duty and they owe it to Scarborough to take the freakin time to give assurance that they aren't going to neglect it like last time.

I haven't seen opposition to Crosstown East. Don't forget the MOU for Eglinton-SLRT was widely accepted.

In all honesty practically speaking, I don't even think Scarborough "deserves" a LRT considering the layout of the area and the density.

You're entitled to your opinion but most city planners and transit planners disagree with you. I'll take their word over your obviously angry and condescending opinion.

Buses should suffice.

If you see what happens when the SRT shuts down, obviously not. In fact the TTC themselves call a SRT shutdown forcing the TTC to provide shuttle service as a nightmare.

In today's world, you can't have two story singe family houses with garages AND subway within walking distance. It simply makes no sense. Transit funding should be given to areas where density warrants. Some areas of the city will of course be under-served by rapid transit and rightly so.

An yet I never see you in the Richmond Hill subway thread... go figure

 

[ksun]

You can only see a City with downtown and suburbs as it is today in the future. I see something much more connected and cohesive for a healthier future

let's go back a few decades and look at the areas around all the current stops to review density compared to STC. Id say we could even remove some to save some cash if we use your metric. And please don't compare one transit neglected suburb to another. They both have large areas unconnected to the City

Ill surprisingly agree with you in that BRT should have been best for all areas except STC. And that goes for Hamilton, Mississauga, Vaughan etc...But that wasn't Scarborough's decision. So tell us when that plan gets tabled?

I agree with you all parts of Toronto should be connected, but they ARE connected. At least among North American cities, TTC's coverage is top notch. There are few spots you can't reach within the city via public transit (plus 10 minutes of walking for connections). Scarborough is no exception.

However, how fast you can reach it is a different story. Getting a subway or LRT requires sufficient density and ridership to make it worthwhile. It may take 1.5 hours to travel from NE Scarborough to downtown, but that's absolutely reasonable because building a high capacity RT for a low density area is a financial irresponsibility even though local people may feel "respected". But you seem to agree with me on that. BRT sounds perfect and it is what areas like Scarborough really deserves.

 

[ksun]

An yet I never see you in the Richmond Hill subway thread... go figure

I have commented there (as well as Spadina extension). and my point is both lines are a mistake. If Toronto has to money to building anything, it should be spent on improving transit within the denser old city, not the fre.king suburbs where majority of people drive to watch a movie.

I'd rather build a subway on Bathurst, Dufferin, St Clair, King and Queen before considering anything in North York, Scarborough or Etobicoke. You choose the single family low density lifestyle, you endure the long commute. That's fair. Why should such lifestyle be subsidized.

 

[crs1026]

There is nobody asking how this transit line can best serve Scarborough.

Actually, when this was asked yesterday, City Staff were pretty clear that the subway does not serve Scarboroug, it just serves the development of the STC.

I wonder what the net/net on STC is. Can we show that it will generate revenue for the city that's worth the expense? Is there a competing use of that land - I'm tempted to suggest a theme park, but maybe that's unkind - that would generate the same tax revenue with less capital investment? If STC is of net benefit to Scarborough, then figure out what amount of transit funding it justifies, and work backwards to make the transit solution fit that envelope.

Keep in mind that Etobicoke got the Humber Bay development, but no transit investment at all. Maybe we can repeat that feat at STC: a morass of condos, without a subway.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Does anyone know when we'll know the exact costs of this subway extension? With our current estimate, it will cost $3.16 Billion +\- 35%, which means it could cost as much as $4.17 Billion, or as little as $2.14 Billion

 

[crs1026]

The current estimate at least has been escalated using an assumption of service by 2025. That's at least more certain than say ST/RER, which doesn't have a timetable yet so escalation hasn't been applied. Any further precision will only come as the design proceeds and technical things are clarified.

Keep in mind the numbers for the 3-stop base case subway have also been escalated. Plan A is also now more expensive.

- Paul

 

[Hopkins123]

Why is everybody acting as if the one-stop extension is somehow a permanent reality? Who's to say that the costs don't include some provisions for future stations at Brimley/Eglinton and McCowan/Lawrence? Maybe even the tail tracks will extend to the 401 making it easier for expansion to Sheppard and beyond.

The Tory plan for now helps far more people than the Transit City Scarborough Line LRT plan ever did, with at least 17 new stations than we had before. Are we forgetting the SRT corridor is home to the least used rapid transit station in the network? Scarborough Centre is a regional transit hub trafficking through 40,000 commuters daily; that will soon be without any rapid transit as the SRT nears end of life. A rapid shuttle to such a destination is nothing to scuff at.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Does anyone know when we'll know the exact costs of this subway extension? With our current estimate, it will cost $3.16 Billion +\- 35%, which means it could cost as much as $4.17 Billion, or as little as $2.14 Billion

So, best case scenario: costs go down and we revert back to near the original promised price tag. Worst case scenario is...out of this world; 1 subway stop for 80% of the current Crosstown's pricetag.

And all of this is assuming that this project is managed properly and there are no price increases during construction.

Woof.

 

[coffey1]

I'd rather build a subway on Bathurst, Dufferin, St Clair, King and Queen before considering anything in North York, Scarborough or Etobicoke. You choose the single family low density lifestyle, you endure the long commute. That's fair. Why should such lifestyle be subsidized.

STC is not single family homes. It is surrounded by less SFH than 3/4 of the existing stops & that says alot after they just had a building boom around many subway locations that allowed higher densities. Yet I dont have to walk much further than around the corner to see swaths of single family home around most stops outside of the few downtown. You will have a much more difficult time finding those SFH around STC.

Rent a car, or transfer onto the RT and check it out. Its true