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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

ksun said:
I agree with you all parts of Toronto should be connected, but they . BRT sounds perfect and it is what areas like Scarborough really deserves.
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This is where we dont agree. Which area specifically? Scarborough is not just an small area? It large, diverse and had differing needs.


Rent a car, or transfer onto the RT, or ride multiple buses and check it out. Its true
 
crs1026 said:
Keep in mind that Etobicoke got the Humber Bay development, but no transit investment at all. Maybe we can repeat that feat at STC: a morass of condos, without a subway.
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I don't think we will need to worry about that. Off the top of my head, any land developer would look at these areas first within the 416: Humber Bay, The Queensway, Six-Points + Dundas West, Unilever, East Bayfront, Lower Don Lands, Portlands, Eastern Ave, Yorkdale, Eglinton-Don Mills, Lawrence-Don Mills, any point along Sheppard, any point along the 401, the Golden Mile strip, Newtonbrook, Steeles Corners.

All these areas are more desirable than STC, subway or no subway, and would cost the same to build something in as STC. This isn't even getting to hub spots planned and underway in Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Mississauga.

I see zero reason why a subway would suddenly make building at STC preferable to developers when they can make attract more buyers and make more money at any of the above locations at the same price.
 
WislaHD said:
I don't think we will need to worry about that. Off the top of my head, any land developer would look at these areas first within the 416: Humber Bay, The Queensway, Six-Points + Dundas West, Unilever, East Bayfront, Lower Don Lands, Portlands, Eastern Ave, Yorkdale, Eglinton-Don Mills, Lawrence-Don Mills, any point along Sheppard, any point along the 401, the Golden Mile strip, Newtonbrook, Steeles Corners.

All these areas are more desirable than STC, subway or no subway, and would cost the same to build something in as STC. This isn't even getting to hub spots planned and underway in Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Mississauga.

I see zero reason why a subway would suddenly make building at STC preferable to developers when they can make attract more buyers and make more money at any of the above locations at the same price.
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Glad you name the majority of areas which have a subway or CLOSE proximity and have slowly built around it. Aside form the lake&streetcar developments most others would be seeing little to no development without the subway.

Queensway? :) I guess its mildly getting trendy with the young adults whos parents live on the subway line around Bloor and need a cheap option still reasonably close to the stop

Why the hate for Scarborough? People flock & money goes to where governments invest to build nice things. We want nice things to.
 
I agree with WislaHD that it's hard to believe the Scarborough subway would unleash a wave of development at STC. There isn't all that much development at either Kipling or Wilson, in spite of their respective terminal subway stops.

But even if we accept the proposition that STC will somehow be different from those cases, it's still nuts to severely underserve existing densely populated areas because we allocated our very scarce transit investment dollars to a project that doesn't begin to have sufficient ridership to justify it now, but might have more demand at some point in the distant future. Or maybe everything in Toronto is about identity politics and misguided notions of equity, and rational planning doesn't apply, which I guess explains a lot.

In response to Coffey1, saying there is no economic case for the Scarborough subway does not constitute "hate" for the people of Scarborough.
 
pman said:
I agree with WislaHD that it's hard to believe the Scarborough subway would unleash a wave of development at STC. There isn't all that much development at either Kipling or Wilson, in spite of their respective terminal subway stops.

But even if we accept the proposition that STC will somehow be different from those cases, it's still nuts to severely underserve existing densely populated areas because we allocated our very scarce transit investment dollars to a project that doesn't begin to have sufficient ridership to justify it now, but might have more demand at some point in the distant future. Or maybe everything in Toronto is about identity politics and misguided notions of equity, and rational planning doesn't apply, which I guess explains a lot.
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They are certainly building condos around Kipling station. There is no issues & what's the selling feature?? The soil? Do people really expect everything to fill every block surrounding immediately with be 30 stories high developments?. We would have a much bigger problem.

Even downtown Toronto did not just appear with massive high rise buildings. It was planned decades ago. This is absurd. STC will do really good once the smoke clears and its a direct hub.
 
coffey1 said:
Queensway? :) I guess its mildly getting trendy with the young adults whos parents live on the subway line around Bloor and need a cheap option still reasonably close to the stop
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I'm referring to future growth too. If I were a guessing man, The Queensway will explode in development proposals by the next decade. As will the whole stretch between Cloverdale and Islington on Dundas West after the Six Points Interchange is complete.

coffey1 said:
Glad you name the majority of areas which have a subway or CLOSE proximity and have slowly built around it. Aside form the lake&streetcar developments most others would be seeing little to no development without the subway.
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These areas are also not 1h+ commutes even WITH a subway*. The same cannot be said about STC.

* Minus Humber Bay, given the chronic congestion. But Humber Bay is just absolutely ridiculous.
 
WislaHD said:
I'm referring to future growth too. If I were a guessing man, The Queensway will explode in development proposals by the next decade. As will the whole stretch between Cloverdale and Islington on Dundas West after the Six Points Interchange is complete.



These areas are also not 1h+ commutes even WITH a subway*. The same cannot be said about STC.

* Minus Humber Bay, given the chronic congestion. But Humber Bay is just absolutely ridiculous.
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1 hour commute? from STC to Downtown? Surely there are a lot of low ridership stops in the way buts even with the RT its around 45 minutes. The Queensway is not comparable to STC. I hope the keep building nice mid rise condos itll be a nice looking area.
 
pman said:
I agree with WislaHD that it's hard to believe the Scarborough subway would unleash a wave of development at STC. There isn't all that much development at either Kipling or Wilson, in spite of their respective terminal subway stops.

But even if we accept the proposition that STC will somehow be different from those cases, it's still nuts to severely underserve existing densely populated areas because we allocated our very scarce transit investment dollars to a project that doesn't begin to have sufficient ridership to justify it now, but might have more demand at some point in the distant future. Or maybe everything in Toronto is about identity politics and misguided notions of equity, and rational planning doesn't apply, which I guess explains a lot.

In response to Coffey1, saying there is no economic case for the Scarborough subway does not constitute "hate" for the people of Scarborough.
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Just FYI I have never claimed Scarborough "hate" to anyone who opposes the subway extension. Its those that use false narratives and completely untrue facts about the area that is not OK. Claims of STC being surrounded by single family homes kinda nonsense.

Im the 1st one to agree we need to look for an alternative aside from the 3bill extension and the transfer LRT. IMO Should be an easy compromise here. But we are forced to choose again & some choose to throw mud when we are forced to choose between 2 polarizing plans.

Build a surface subway. Shut the line down like they would have don't for the SLRT. Pay the extra costs and be done. No more mud slinging and Scarborough Center can plan on a solid future in 20 years when it all settles. That plus an LRT loop would be a completely sensible plan for the future.
 
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ksun said:
I'd rather build a subway on Bathurst, Dufferin, St Clair, King and Queen before considering anything in North York, Scarborough or Etobicoke. You choose the single family low density lifestyle, you endure the long commute. That's fair. Why should such lifestyle be subsidized.
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If you think Dufferin is mostly highrises, you haven't seen it. A lot of single family houses front Dufferin.

Bathurst has a higher % of highrises ... but the #7 / #160 Bathurst ridership is lower than the ridership of #29 Dufferin. Presumably, many Bathurst residents take E-W bus routes and transfer to Yonge subway.

Together, those two streets give a very good illustration that local density is not the only factor that determines a transit line's ridership.
 
ksun said:
Do they know that most of them don't live anywhere close to that dreamed subway stop and that they would need a bus to get there? Or are they pretending as long as a subway is built, they can simply walk to the station and ride to downtown?

I just fail to see how a one stop (or even 4 stop subway) is better than a 18 stop LRT, which is also cheaper. A better solution? We already have one, more than one actually.
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They are pretending as long as a subway is built, they can simply walk to the station and ride to the subway
 
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