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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

I'm loving all the negative press on this proposed white elephant. John Tory has tried with all his might to be stubborn and support this extension (fearing the once mighty, and thankfully crushed, Ford Nation), but at some point even the ostrich has to pull its head out of the sand to avoid asphyxiation...

The subway either gets resolved or your likely to see Ford Nation 2.0. 80% of the vote to Scarborough subway supporters and many of the Tory supporters were just scared to vote for their candidate in fear of Ford 2.0.

If Tory caves... Do you really think its going to turn out the way you like? You'll likely want to pop your head back In the sand for 4 atleast more years.

You think the circus is bad now. I truly don't want to see it.

White Elephant LOL. You guys are too much. How about we just look at ways to improve the current subway plan the best we can & move forward.
 
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It is just money being thrown away.

Some context is important. STC to Kennedy is a one stop 6km tunnel. 6km gets you from King Station to Davisville Station on the Yonge line. Scarberians will be in a tunnel for one stop that is longer in length than my entire subway commute. And they still have to travel the full length of the Danforth subway before transferring onto the Yonge line.

I really want us to move forward and investigate an above-ground route using the SRT corridor. I don't care if we have some engineering challenges with the surface route, they can be solved by throwing money at it. We have $2,800,000,000 to throw at those engineering challenges before it becomes more expensive than the one-stop subway.

But while we are wasting time with is, we are not addressing the funding needs of the subway line that will actually benefit Scarberians immensely. That is the Relief Line from downtown to Sheppard/Don Mills.

100% agree with the Surface subway investigation.

100% disagree that the DRL will benefit Scarborough citizens immensely. Yes it will help but the impact is minimal & overall and does nothing for the attraction of investment. The necessity will be there when Scarborough actually has transit worth riding.

Again lets not argue which is more important. Both are VERY important.
 
100% disagree that the DRL will benefit Scarborough citizens immensely. Yes it will help but the impact is minimal & overall and does nothing for the attraction of investment. The necessity will be there when Scarborough actually has transit worth riding.

Enjoy transferring at Bloor-Yonge when the Yonge Subway reaches 40,000 pphd then.

Again lets not argue which is more important. Both are VERY important.
yes, but there is only finite amount of funding.
 
Coffey1...............I actually appreciate your frustration. It seems to me that even with Toronto's limited rapid transit system, Scarborough seems to have gotten the short end of the stick. The only extension was 30 years ago and the TTC left the SRT line to rot.

The residents of Scarborough were asked about the one subway BEFORE ST was announced, BEFORE the Eglinton East LRT, weren't even asked about a SkyTrain to downtown or shown the new trains, and BEFORE the new figures that show ridership will be far fewer than once thought and yet the price has skyrocketed even with having just 1 station.

The latest figure is $3.3 billion so let everyone know that is the maximum price for any expansion. Then hold open houses throughout Scarborough {libraries, community centres, malls, churches etc} and a big mail out and clear web page they can look up for any further info. This makes sure that anybody who is even mildly interested in transit has more than enough time to look at all the options and make an informed decision.

Providing mock ups of all the different trains, frequency, speed to Kennedy and downtown, stations, routes etc and then they have 4 options for the STC connection...................LRT/ST/SkyTrain/ or Danforth extension. Have clear pricing so that if one comes in too close to $3.3 billion then it will result in a cut of length from the Eglinton East LRT.

Then hold a plebiscite or get a series of polls by different pollsters done at different times and different methods, average them out and the most popular goes ahead. Things have become so opaque that no one can keep things straight and the politicians are milking it for all the political points they can muster.

Inform the citizens and let the people of Scarborough decide what they want and put an end to it and once and for all.
 
Enjoy transferring at Bloor-Yonge when the Yonge Subway reaches 40,000 pphd then.


yes, but there is only finite amount of funding.

Again I refuse to debate DRL vs. SSE. And quite frankly at that point your mention above funding will come fast and furious (albeit late) from above and thru a municipal levy (rightfully so) and there will be little opposition or political assault from the big guys in this City. So im not concerned.
 
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Coffey1...............I actually appreciate your frustration. It seems to me that even with Toronto's limited rapid transit system, Scarborough seems to have gotten the short end of the stick. The only extension was 30 years ago and the TTC left the SRT line to rot.

The residents of Scarborough were asked about the one subway BEFORE ST was announced, BEFORE the Eglinton East LRT, weren't even asked about a SkyTrain to downtown or shown the new trains, and BEFORE the new figures that show ridership will be far fewer than once thought and yet the price has skyrocketed even with having just 1 station.

The latest figure is $3.3 billion so let everyone know that is the maximum price for any expansion. Then hold open houses throughout Scarborough {libraries, community centres, malls, churches etc} and a big mail out and clear web page they can look up for any further info. This makes sure that anybody who is even mildly interested in transit has more than enough time to look at all the options and make an informed decision.

Providing mock ups of all the different trains, frequency, speed to Kennedy and downtown, stations, routes etc and then they have 4 options for the STC connection...................LRT/ST/SkyTrain/ or Danforth extension. Have clear pricing so that if one comes in too close to $3.3 billion then it will result in a cut of length from the Eglinton East LRT.

Then hold a plebiscite or get a series of polls by different pollsters done at different times and different methods, average them out and the most popular goes ahead. Things have become so opaque that no one can keep things straight and the politicians are milking it for all the political points they can muster.

Inform the citizens and let the people of Scarborough decide what they want and put an end to it and once and for all.

How about we get an actual price on the surface subway first? I don't believe for a minute the extra costs required to build the Subway over the SLRT on the same route would be close to the figure were talking for a 1-2 stop to STC on the McCowan alignment.

A Surface Subway, Eglinton LRT to UTSC & Sheppard LRT (even with the remaining transfer here)would respectfully fulfill the needs of the majority and bring a higher level of importance to Scarborough Center. But without numbers one can only guess.

As you state just another napkin idea to debate.
 
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If you consider the cost of keeping the SRT running during constuction, the grand total of the project is $3.2 billion, over $200 million higher than last week's figure.

David Nickle‏@DavidNickle
The report from City Manager Peter Wallace confirms the Scarborough subway will now cost $3.16B at 1 stop; $4.61B at 3 stops.
 
Let's say hypothetically we're never going back to any solution, and that SSE is 100% without a doubt going forward. Will people support adding a station at Lawrence then? Yes it costs more money to add a station, no surprises there. But it does make a helluva lot of sense to add one. Lawrence East is very busy. Should we have ditched adding a station at Finch with TYSSE? Should we drop a station at Steeles with YNSE? Should we drop a station at Gerrard with the DRL? The answer to all is obviously no. So I think it only makes sense to add a station at Lawrence with SSE (if we are in fact going through with the project). If we're not going to add a station, then how many future subway projects will also become station-less express lines/extensions?
 
City Council is being asked to once again vote on the Sheppard LRT and it got me thinking. Maybe there's a political way out of this entire boondoggle.

1. Cancel the Scarborough subway. It's easy politically given the ballooning costs — minus Scarborough feeling screwed over by not getting a subway to STC (I'll get to that in a sec).

2. Revert back to the approved, signed and 100% Province funded Scarborough LRT. This takes that extraordinary expense (including operating costs) entirely off the city's hands, freeing us to focus on the Relief Line.

3. Convert the Sheppard LRT plan to a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre. Smaller (cheaper) stations, shorter more straightforward distance to STC almost entirely under Sheppard Avenue. The Sheppard LRT is fully funded. Move that money and part of the Scarborough subway levy to pay for the difference. Scarborough gets its subway. The Sheppard Line is finally given purpose.

4. All this shifts the Scarborough transfer point to Sheppard-Yonge away from the overburdened Yonge-Bloor transfer until a Relief Line to Sheppard and Don Mills is built. It also now makes an extended Relief Line a Scarborough priority, moving this part of the city from a me too opponent to a let's work together partner.

5. Build the Relief Line from Union to Pape to further relieve Yonge-Bloor, then to Don Mills to give Scarborough a more direct route downtown.
 
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City Council is being asked to once again vote on the Sheppard LRT and it got me thinking. Maybe there's a political way out of this entire boondoggle.

1. Cancel the Scarborough subway. It's easy politically given the ballooning costs — minus Scarborough feeling screwed over by not getting a subway to STC (I'll get to that in a sec).

2. Revert back to the approved, signed and 100% Province funded Scarborough LRT. This takes that extraordinary expense (including operating costs) entirely off the city's hands, freeing us to focus on the Relief Line.

3. Convert the Sheppard LRT plan to a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre. Smaller (cheaper) stations, shorter more straightforward distance to STC almost entirely under Sheppard Avenue. The Sheppard LRT is fully funded. Move that money and part of the Scarborough subway levy to pay for the difference. Scarborough gets its subway.

4. All this shifts the Scarborough transfer point to Sheppard-Yonge away from the overburdened Yonge-Bloor transfer until a Relief Line to Sheppard and Don Mills is built. It also now makes an extended Relief Line a Scarborough priority, moving this part of the city from a me too opponent to a let's work together partner.

5. Build the Relief Line from Union to Pape to further relieve Yonge-Bloor, then to Don Mills to give Scarborough a more direct route downtown.
The Sheppard subway extension out of nowhere to save the day. That would definitely be one heck of a way to complete this saga of transit drama.

Dare I say it, but Sheppard subway makes a heck of a lot more sense than the one-stop Scarborough subway. Depending on alignment and how it crosses the 401, it would only be about 7-8km. Unlike the ridiculous one-stop subway though, you will have stops on Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount, Agincourt, and depending on alignment, some or all of Midland, Brimley and McCowan. Those are a lot more intersecting bus routes, and a lot more development potential along the entirety of Sheppard East than there ever would be in Scarborough.

If there is proper community planning around this, it is a much better deal than the one-stop subway. I wonder how competitive travel time is for Sheppard->RL from STC is compared to one-stop subway though.
 
MetroMan,said: City Council is being asked to once again vote on the Sheppard LRT and it got me thinking. Maybe there's a political way out of this entire boondoggle.

1. Cancel the Scarborough subway. It's easy politically given the ballooning costs — minus Scarborough feeling screwed over by not getting a subway to STC (I'll get to that in a sec). No SSE has more value than Sheppard for the future of Scarborough Center. (I am a Sheppard East resident but care about Scarborough as a whole). Study & build the surface subway. Surely more expensive than LRT but wont be close to the McCowan route and much more effective & attractive as a downtown to SCC direct connection. Well see when numbers come back but likely much cheaper than a Sheppard extension as well

2. Revert back to the approved, signed and 100% Province funded Scarborough LRT. This takes that extraordinary expense (including operating costs) entirely off the city's hands, freeing us to focus on the Relief Line. Not likely as mentioned above and for Political reasons

3. Convert the Sheppard LRT plan to a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre. Smaller (cheaper) stations, shorter more straightforward distance to STC almost entirely under Sheppard Avenue. The Sheppard LRT is fully funded. Move that money and part of the Scarborough subway levy to pay for the difference. Scarborough gets its subway. The Sheppard Line is finally given purpose. Sheppard LRT transfer is much more palatable as part of a local loop now

4. All this shifts the Scarborough transfer point to Sheppard-Yonge away from the overburdened Yonge-Bloor transfer until a Relief Line to Sheppard and Don Mills is built. It also now makes an extended Relief Line a Scarborough priority, moving this part of the city from a me too opponent to a let's work together partner. DRL is not a HIGH Scarborough Priority and should not be used to hinder any designs. But I agree it is a Toronto priority that's needed and will be funded.

5. Build the Relief Line from Union to Pape to further relieve Yonge-Bloor, then to Don Mills to give Scarborough a more direct route downtown.


Quite frankly I believe all the recent SSE cost escalation is a set up for some type of master napkin plan announcement. A shift back to SLRT will like be the nail in the coffin for Tory and I don't think its good Politically for anyone in this City. We need to really dig down to study all options to improve the SSE. And I think the most reasonable answer is currently being reviewed. Although nothing when shock my in the next chapter of this mess.
 
Instead of just saying that LRT is cheaper, how about investigating wh
City Council is being asked to once again vote on the Sheppard LRT and it got me thinking. Maybe there's a political way out of this entire boondoggle.

1. Cancel the Scarborough subway. It's easy politically given the ballooning costs — minus Scarborough feeling screwed over by not getting a subway to STC (I'll get to that in a sec).

2. Revert back to the approved, signed and 100% Province funded Scarborough LRT. This takes that extraordinary expense (including operating costs) entirely off the city's hands, freeing us to focus on the Relief Line.

3. Convert the Sheppard LRT plan to a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre. Smaller (cheaper) stations, shorter more straightforward distance to STC almost entirely under Sheppard Avenue. The Sheppard LRT is fully funded. Move that money and part of the Scarborough subway levy to pay for the difference. Scarborough gets its subway. The Sheppard Line is finally given purpose.

4. All this shifts the Scarborough transfer point to Sheppard-Yonge away from the overburdened Yonge-Bloor transfer until a Relief Line to Sheppard and Don Mills is built. It also now makes an extended Relief Line a Scarborough priority, moving this part of the city from a me too opponent to a let's work together partner.

5. Build the Relief Line from Union to Pape to further relieve Yonge-Bloor, then to Don Mills to give Scarborough a more direct route downtown.


A very interesting idea. You should definitely go down to City Hall and pitch this!
 
At the Public Meeting tonight at City Hall - which had more honchos and more media than the previous ones - Jennifer Keesmaat stated that the sole rationale for the one stop subway was "creating an urban growth centre" at STC - the inference being that no one was claiming that it helps get people get anywhere else.
In contrast, she pointed to the Eglinton East LRT and the combination of east-west bus routes and SmartTrack service connections as the main elements of Scarboro's transit 'network', along with some potential BRT. She also alluded to a study leading to overhaul of the road network, that would create north south roads "with a much more urban form".
She was challenged as to whether this plan would deliver transit equity within Scarboro. She pointed out that 48% of transit ridership stays within Scarboro and the biggest part of this is on the lrt route, so it is the key 'transit avenue' and touches a great part of this need.
- Paul
 

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