Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[steveintoronto]

Well OneCity and Streety seem to talk to ALL their Scarborough friends who ALL seem to be in favour. Also there are not very many people on here from Scarborough rallying for a LRT.

Scarborough residents prefer LRT to subway: Poll
By TESS KALINOWSKIReal Estate Reporter
Mon., Feb. 3, 2014

The politicians say Scarborough hearts are set on a subway. But the latest online survey suggests that — given the facts — voters across Toronto, including those in the east end, would prefer an LRT.

Leger Research found 61 per cent of respondents preferred an LRT, compared with 39 per cent who supported an extension to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Even in Scarborough, the majority of decided respondents — 56 per cent — backed the LRT, compared to 44 per cent who wanted a subway.

The survey found 18 per cent were undecided.

Residents have had years to learn about the two transit options that have been floated to replace the aging Scarborough RT, said Leger’s Dave Scholz.

“But it’s very confusing when you just listen to city councillors talk about this topic. If you get past all of that rhetoric and you get down to how much is it going to cost, who’s going to pay for it and who’s going to be serviced by it, then people have a very realistic view of what they want,” he said.
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/scarborough_residents_prefer_lrt_to_subway_poll.html

 

[sixrings]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/scarborough_residents_prefer_lrt_to_subway_poll.html

Fake news

 

[syn]

The notion that the transfer is riders' biggest issue with a Line 3 upgrade (either as LFLRVs or otherwise) is really only a recent one that SSE backers got ahold of to embolden SSE. As if every line needs to go downtown in order for it to have merit, or that no city has a transfer, or separate line outside of downtown don't exist around the world. I mean c'mon. Upgrading Line 3 was a fine proposal that had huge support in Scarborough up until a few years ago. If SSE died, Line 3 remained, and a Line 4 extension was proposed - which was pretty much the plan since the 80s and what Scarborough wanted - would you still add in the "transfer" prefix to describe Line 3? Are you aware that Line 4 Sheppard doesn't go downtown?

Excellent point.

History, rational planning expertise, economics...one must take a multidisciplinary approach to ignorance in order to justify this extension.

In any case, what is the current status of this project? Will they be able to actually start before Ford's first term is up? The changes he claims will happen don't seem like they'll be changed in short order, and it'll add a significant amount to the budget.

 

[syn]

I use "Transfer LRT" to separate it from the LRT proposal that would have combined the SRT with Eglinton. There is also my idea of connecting STC to downtown via the Gatineau hydro corridor and the Don Valley.

The Metrolinx report from June 2012 into the combined SRT/ECLRT showed about 12,500 passengers taking the line. If this study had extended to Malvern, the number would no doubt be above 15k. Eliminating the transfer is not just to appease the lazy, it actually allows with actual number of people to use transit, instead of driving. With the "Transfer LRT", roughly half these people don't take transit and drive instead - is this our goals with transit? Eliminating transfers for a few hundred or a thousand riders is not warranted, but for such large numbers, it definitely makes sense.

View attachment 151131

Which option in the report are you referring to?

 

[OneCity]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/03/scarborough_residents_prefer_lrt_to_subway_poll.html

Now ask all the winning Politicians of every stripe in Scarborough for their internal polls. Tory's pollster Kouvalis mentioned the subway suppory has maintained 10% greater support than LRT. But maybe he and Ford got the misleading polls? And all the NDP, Liberals and Conservatives winning elections at all levels here are just following the wrong polling? This poll was for the Star which says all you need to know

I use "Transfer LRT" to separate it from the LRT proposal that would have combined the SRT with Eglinton. There is also my idea of connecting STC to downtown via the Gatineau hydro corridor and the Don Valley.

The Metrolinx report from June 2012 into the combined SRT/ECLRT showed about 12,500 passengers taking the line. If this study had extended to Malvern, the number would no doubt be above 15k. Eliminating the transfer is not just to appease the lazy, it actually allows with actual number of people to use transit, instead of driving. With the "Transfer LRT", roughly half these people don't take transit and drive instead - is this our goals with transit? Eliminating transfers for a few hundred or a thousand riders is not warranted, but for such large numbers, it definitely makes sense.

View attachment 151131

We would have introduced a new transfer on Sheppard and continued the old one which has cuts off the proposed major growth node of Scarborough Centre. Not to mention the piss poor alignment thru nowhere to get there. Transfers are fine, but attention to detail in the placement matters. LRT was never the issue. Poorly placed transfer LRT has been and would have be a very unfortunate legacy if compounded upon Sheppard.

 

[steveintoronto]

This poll was for the Star which says all you need to know

Yes, it does say all I need to know. It was done by Leger.

Here's one by Forum, albeit Toronto wide (who are paying the bill):
http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2542/lrt-preferred-to-subway-in-scarborough/

Here's another Forum one:

Scarborough residents are evenly divided on whether an LRT line or a subway extension best serves the eastern suburb’s transit needs, according to a new poll.

The survey by Forum Research Inc. found that 42 per cent of Scarborough respondents said the cancelled seven-stop LRT would be the better option, compared to 37 per cent who backed the one-stop subway extension the city is building. [...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

But since you make this personal, I suspect given the facts, Torontonians would vote against further extending the subway in *any direction* given the alternatives available.

This isn't against 'Scarborough'. It's against *stupidity*. And all independent transit experts agree. Maybe they all work for the Star?

 

[sixrings]

I could have saved countless hours not being on this thread. SMH

 

[steveintoronto]

I could have saved countless hours not being on this thread. SMH

As much as I go through phases of agreeing with you, it's good to keep your sword sharp, as this battle is about to heat up again, big time.

And the most influential argument against it? (And this is why Councillors consider audits as the work of Satan). Just plain economic and practical common-sense. Stay sharp on the topic, whether you participate here or not.

The parallel to Trumpism is striking. "You can fool some of the people some of the time..."

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Now ask all the winning Politicians of every stripe in Scarborough for their internal polls. Tory's pollster Kouvalis mentioned the subway suppory has maintained 10% greater support than LRT. But maybe he and Ford got the misleading polls? And all the NDP, Liberals and Conservatives winning elections at all levels here are just following the wrong polling? This poll was for the Star which says all you need to know



We would have introduced a new transfer on Sheppard and continued the old one which has cuts off the proposed major growth node of Scarborough Centre. Not to mention the piss poor alignment thru nowhere to get there. Transfers are fine, but attention to detail in the placement matters. LRT was never the issue. Poorly placed transfer LRT has been and would have be a very unfortunate legacy if compounded upon Sheppard.

Kouvalis has not worked for Tory in years. And I was close to John's campaign, the polls were dead even. So 10 percent support is something I highly doubt. More likely either side within the margin of error.

 

[robmausser]

All lines are the same blue colour. I assume you are proposing to use subway technology for all. I think you have too many stations on the Kingston road portion.

Its LRT and GO RER.

 

[sixrings]

The problem is that one part of the debate is settled and then they bring up another part. You settle that part then we move onto another part. The circle continues until we get back to the original part and we debate it again as if we never talked it through before. The subway advocates will never back down no matter how much it costs or how little stops it has. They like to point out all the negatives about the LRT plan which sure it has some. Yet they never acknowledge their own plans have glaring holes with larger and larger costs to them. Then when all else fails they seem to think its a conspiracy against their beliefs about these costs and for whatever reason the rest of the city wants to spite them.

 

[steveintoronto]

The subway advocates will never back down no matter how much it costs or how little stops it has. They like to point out all the negatives about the LRT plan which sure it has some. Yet they never acknowledge their own plans have glaring holes with larger and larger costs to them. Then when all else fails they seem to think its a conspiracy against their beliefs about these costs and for whatever reason the rest of the city wants to spite them.

But at the end of the day, there's no money for it. As much as I detest the moron Ford, those with deep pockets will call the shots, not him. He's a nobody in the big scheme of things. A puppet with a pull cord hanging out his back.

Ontario is going to have to move forward by private financing, even the Libs were forced down that road. Who in their right mind would underwrite a subway to (effectively) nowhere?

RER? Absolutely. Ditto for the Relief Line, btw.

 

[OneCity]

Yes, it does say all I need to know. It was done by Leger.

Here's one by Forum, albeit Toronto wide (who are paying the bill):
http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2542/lrt-preferred-to-subway-in-scarborough/

Here's another Forum one:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html

But since you make this personal, I suspect given the facts, Torontonians would vote against further extending the subway in *any direction* given the alternatives available.

This isn't against 'Scarborough'. It's against *stupidity*. And all independent transit experts agree. Maybe they all work for the Star?

Personal? No. I simply debate the value of these narrow polls being used to convince the voters of something so very contradictory to the reality

The old LRT plan was heavily flawed to say the least, and Scarborough has many self procliamed "progressive" candidates running every election teaching us the wonders of the old LRT plan and constantly losing, we have the same uncompromising outside councillors from the wealthiest subway filled ridings showing up at town halls telling us what's best for us. There has really never been more "teaching" or telling people what "they" want on any big item like this one.

The terms "expert" has also been used far too loose in this cornered debate of poorly connected LRT vs. the most expensive subway proposal. There were many other options some expert driven which have been ignored and has become a disservice to everyone in this City.

The polling results are unquestionable for the actual Poltical representatives of the voters here in Scarborough and whether you fail to see it or not the Toronto Star is a very politically bias towards the Downtown Left of the City. Even all the winning NDP or Liberal Politicians within Scarborough won't even buy these polls being peddled. I encourage anyone that feels that poll to be worth anything to run on it as a main platform item.

The only thing that will ramp up at election time is a few usual Downtown Councillors acting like they are the Mayor and the Toronto Star affiliates making the usual noise ignoring all other options, promoting and hoping to breathe life into the non-grade seperated hacked in so called "expert" Transit City plan while ignoring all other options. Thankfully this time around these outsiders cant meddle any further and the Province with the support of the Mayor and 99% Scarborough Politicians will put a sharp end to Transit City and the relentless unrepresentitive, uncompromising narrative promoting it as the bible of "expert" transit planning.

 

[pstogios]

The problem is that one part of the debate is settled and then they bring up another part. You settle that part then we move onto another part. The circle continues until we get back to the original part and we debate it again as if we never talked it through before. The subway advocates will never back down no matter how much it costs or how little stops it has. They like to point out all the negatives about the LRT plan which sure it has some. Yet they never acknowledge their own plans have glaring holes with larger and larger costs to them. Then when all else fails they seem to think its a conspiracy against their beliefs about these costs and for whatever reason the rest of the city wants to spite them.

PERFECT summary of the Scarborough Subway Psychosis.

 

[steveintoronto]

The terms "expert" has also been used far too loose in this cornered debate of poorly connected LRT vs. the most expensive subway proposal. There were many other options some expert driven which have been ignored and has become a disservice to everyone in this City.

Then feel perfectly free to post reference. All you post is opinion. And it's far more than just "The Star". It's the Globe and most any other publication outside of the Post Partums.

And it's a litany of transit professionals.

You can argue with yourself for all I care. The future of transit in this Province is, with very few exceptions, private initiatives. Best you start haranguing investors with your spiel. Good luck.

Meantime, those Commie Lefty Socialist Good-for-Nothings, the Globe state:

EDITORIAL
Globe editorial: The Scarborough subway, a boondoggle on rails


PUBLISHED MARCH 1, 2017UPDATED MARCH 21, 2018
The Scarborough subway could be a poster child for the political hijackings of public transit. These preventable tragedies happen time and time again in Canada's largest city. The idea of serving the greatest number of commuters at the lowest cost is overpowered by politics, and replaced with schemes to spend more money on less transit, serving fewer people, more expensively.

This week, it was revealed that the cost of the proposed one-stop Scarborough subway continues to grow. On Tuesday, a city staff report pegged the estimated cost at $3.35-billion, up from $2-billion last year. The report says the final price tag could end up as much as 50 per cent higher. So we may be looking at a $5-billion, one-stop subway.

The staff report upping the price also reduced the line's low projected ridership; it expects to attract just 2,300 new riders a day.


Globe editorial: Scarborough subway: Damn the cost, full speed ahead

The Scarborough subway is illogical transit policy. Its only logic is political. Politicians, municipal and provincial, get to tell voters in Scarborough that they're getting a subway – even though most of Scarborough is far from the line and its solitary station, the cost of which is impoverishing transit elsewhere.
[...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...subway-a-boondoggle-on-rails/article34179150/

I blame the Star myself. It's all their fault...