sixrings
Senior Member
I assumed "outlying areas" meant the moon. Who knows what dr evil meant
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Which go line directly serves the STC? I can understand Richmond Hill or Vaughan, and the only reason I support the Yonge North Extension is because a lot of people live along Steeles and having a station there would be beneficial for commuters. (and again, this line should come AFTER RLN)
As I said before, not everyone is going downtown, a lot of people's commutes are made easier by a TTC connection to the STC. Many go to places along the BD line, some even catch the Yonge line north to Eglinton-Yonge.
I'll have you note that I'm in support for a St. Clair Streetcar extension, but this is besides the point. There's no rapid transit along St. Clair so that has nothing to do with my argument.
Transfers != excitement, Transfers = "Jesus Christ, why must I waste my time doing this?". Not everyone can afford to live in Old Toronto, and most commuters do what you suggest. Transferring means they have to stop what they're doing (ie reading) and move to another location, but many times it's difficult to even do those things because of how busy trains can get (and lack of cell service in tunnels).
There are good reasons for the SSE, one of them is the fact that shuttle buses will not be needed while an LRT conversion occurs. Say buses are to run at frequencies of every 2 minutes all day during the week and 3 minutes during weekends (frequencies would be greater during peak times, while less during off-peak hours). If traversing the corridor fully takes an hour (kennedy-McCowan-Kennedy), 30 buses are required to be running during weekdays and 20 during weekends for 16 hours each day for 5 years. In total, if it costs the TTC 25$ for a driver, 5$ for supervisors, 20$ for maintenance, and 10$ in fuel (10L for the full trip) per hour, operation costs per bus are 60$ an hour, 28.8K per weekday, 19.2K per weekend day. In operational costs alone, this setup will cost 50 million dollars over 5 years, not including the loss in ridership costs (50M$), hiring & benefits costs (~25M), new bus costs (30M assuming 30 buses), new garage costs (100M), lost productivity costs (170M), congestion charges (due to new drivers to downtown (Hard to put a number on it, 5K users get cars and drive it downtown, I'd say that will cost people 175M just in operating the vehicle, plus extra congestion costs on the DVP)), for a total of around 600M$ in potential costs for users and the economy of Toronto. Lost productivity costs by removing the transfer at Kennedy pay for the subway in 60 years without factoring in increases in wages, and a decrease in TTC staff save money as well by streamlining operations. There are benefits, they just may not be seen.
44 North
Senior Member
I also kinda believe there's something afoot with your second point. Purposefully inflate SSE costs so as to kill it. Thought this for awhile, and SSE costs just seem way too high now that it's becoming harder and harder to discount it. It also sort of goes hand-in-hand with SmartTrack's deus ex machina. Promise a Line 2 extension, but simultaneously promise "SmartTrack" (the snake oil that will cure any ailment). Then drive up the costs/complexity/drawbacks of the former so that the latter looks like the winner. Not just for SSE, but for RL too. ST wasn't John Tory's baby, it was created behind closed doors with the Liberals to surreptitiously kill SSE and delay indefinitely (or effectively kill) RL. It's a theory, but still I think it's possible.
The other part I bolded I find annoying. You and OneCity continually write "Transfer LRT". I mean obviously when going from one line to another it's a transfer, you don't need to add it in as a prefix ad nauseum every bloody time in an attempt to underline some shaky point you're making. Line 3 right now is Line 3, not Transfer Line 3. And Line 4 is Line 4, not Transfer Line 4. And Line 5 Crosstown will be Line 5, not transfer Line 5.
The notion that the transfer is riders' biggest issue with a Line 3 upgrade (either as LFLRVs or otherwise) is really only a recent one that SSE backers got ahold of to embolden SSE. As if every line needs to go downtown in order for it to have merit, or that no city has a transfer, or separate line outside of downtown don't exist around the world. I mean c'mon. Upgrading Line 3 was a fine proposal that had huge support in Scarborough up until a few years ago. If SSE died, Line 3 remained, and a Line 4 extension was proposed - which was pretty much the plan since the 80s and what Scarborough wanted - would you still add in the "transfer" prefix to describe Line 3? Are you aware that Line 4 Sheppard doesn't go downtown?
And that's what they've been doing for 50yrs on Bloor-Danforth, a line which in my eyes doesn't even go downtwon. Are you really acting like a transfer is unique to Scarborough? Have you ever been to St George, or Bloor/Yonge? And guess what, a good portion of RL's success is riding on people transferring!
micheal_can
Senior Member
I am just trying to figure how he will pay for that when they cut taxes.
syn
Senior Member
So what?
That's exactly what everyone else on transit has to do.
If you can't afford to live in Old Toronto, then you have to accept the pros and cons that come with living somewhere else. Kind of like how people who live downtown often forgo more living space and/or a cheaper place for convenience.
Try riding one of the crowded downtown streetcar lines that move at a snails pace, and then still have to transfer (or make multiple transfers) to another line. RT riders have it easy in that regard - they can take a 6km minute trip in less than 10 minutes.
So?
You're missing my point. If STC is on the same corridor as the Bloor/Danforth Line then I could argue that St. Clair Station is on the Bloor/Danforth corridor, thus necessitating a transfer free solution.
STC is not on the Bloor/Danforth corridor - this is a completely made up notion based on a poor planning decision Scarborough made many decades ago.
Square One has a better argument for being on the Bloor/Danforth corridor.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Get real. Only Timbuktu...let's not get carried away now. Plus you know the unions won't allow it on the Moon.
sixrings
Senior Member
My in laws live near to square one. They need multiple transfers to visit. Therefore they don't visit. Please don't eliminate the transfer.
sixrings
Senior Member
He's using the less is more model.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
So being broke and in infinite debt means being filthy rich?
sixrings
Senior Member
Don't worry. I thought Rob Ford won because he wanted to cut the gravy train, and Doug Ford won because people hated Wynne and wanted 10 cents off their gas and a fired Hydro CEO because prices were too high. However they both campaigned on Subways Subways Subways. That is the only mandate that matters because transit was the number one issue for most voters. Plus now I am learning through UrbanToronto that voters of Scarborough like OneCity and Streety are perfectly fine having taxes raised if it means getting a Subway to their door. So Doug wont need to cut taxes anymore. The people of Scarborough have spoken through these two thoughtful individuals and they out weigh the rest of the province. So taxes up and a Subway directly to OneCity and Streetys basement (we couldn't have them wait outside in the elements) with zero transfers in between because that wouldn't be fair because it isn't their fault they cant afford to live in the old city.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
It’s unfair to generalize all of Scarborough’s residents’ views through 2 people, especially naming them by name. There are many people who are opposed to the subway plan (Scarborough Transit Action, Centennial College, Malvern) while others are in favour (Scarbourgh Civic Centre, Scarborough Town Centre). Therefore generalizing this diverse borough based on one’s opinion is not fair. At the end of the day, the people who speak FOR the subway have a louder voice compared to those who are AGAINST the subway, and the louder voice can sway more people opinions and have more power in our democracy. Life is just [un]fair like this.
sixrings
Senior Member
Well OneCity and Streety seem to talk to ALL their Scarborough friends who ALL seem to be in favour. Also there are not very many people on here from Scarborough rallying for a LRT. At least if there are I can't name them all by name. As a former Scarborough resident I thought LRT was a good but not perfect plan. Someone once said don't let perfect become the enemy of the good but that comment has been lost on Scarborough transit riders on this forum. Also who am I to judge. I am one of the lucky ones who managed to move to the old city so my views don't count. Only my tax dollars do which ought to be sent to Scarborough as some sort of social welfare project. I am pretty sure TC was accused of that as well to mock the project. Apparently a lot has changed since 2010 but if you just wait a little bit longer, after some more studies, and some more cancelled contracts, I am reasonably sure a Subway will be on its way by the time we're ALL dead and gone
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pstogios
Senior Member
It’s true—the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Or, is it that tender snowflakes are most easily swayed by populists that speak to their fragile emotions (how dare you FORCE me to transfer in the COLD OUTDOORS!) without using any semblance of logic or rationality? Seems to describe the SSE debate pretty well to me...
BurlOak
Senior Member
All lines are the same blue colour. I assume you are proposing to use subway technology for all. I think you have too many stations on the Kingston road portion.My fantasy that likely could have come true, if not for decades of political interference
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BurlOak
Senior Member
I use "Transfer LRT" to separate it from the LRT proposal that would have combined the SRT with Eglinton. There is also my idea of connecting STC to downtown via the Gatineau hydro corridor and the Don Valley.
The Metrolinx report from June 2012 into the combined SRT/ECLRT showed about 12,500 passengers taking the line. If this study had extended to Malvern, the number would no doubt be above 15k. Eliminating the transfer is not just to appease the lazy, it actually allows with actual number of people to use transit, instead of driving. With the "Transfer LRT", roughly half these people don't take transit and drive instead - is this our goals with transit? Eliminating transfers for a few hundred or a thousand riders is not warranted, but for such large numbers, it definitely makes sense.
