Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

First of all, calling Eglinton as line 3 and calling the relief line as Line 5 is confusing.

Using Line __ for anything is confusing.

Call it: YUS (or simply YU), BD, Eg, FW, etc.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

World class cities don't cut corners on stuff like that. If you build transit, be methodical, have a plan and do it right.

What should have happened in that order as time goes by and funds becomes available:

Bold=Priorities by 2031

1-Line 5 Relief Line U: To open by 2020 between Pape Station to Keele via Queen, including West Harbour.

• Paid by Transit City funds

2-SRT Upgrade:

• refurbishment and upgrade of the line
• Rebranded to simply Line 3, no more SRT
• new Mk.III trains
• Rebuild Kennedy station for a Montreal Lionel-Groulx type of station or a cheaper St.Georges station.
• Bury STC station to allow for city planning to properly redevelop the centre into a proper "eastern downtown"
• Underground Triton bus terminal
• Paid by city tax levy and all level of government (1/3 formula)

3-Line 5 extension from Pape to Don Mills & Sheppard

• Line 1 Yonge is officially relieved so no need to call it "Relief line"
• Paid for in part by road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP (while McGuinty was still there). With a Don Mills subway and increased GO service, you use DVP & Gardiner, you pay. Period.

4-Line 3 extension west to Pearson via Eglinton

• Underground between Don Mills and Mount Denis
• Elevated Skytrain from Don Mills to Kennedy & from Mount Dennis to Pearson
• Goes underground at Kennedy to meet Line 2
• Yonge-Eglinton station won't be overcrowded due to the Line 5 station at Don Mills going downtown when the line is opened providing further relief to Line 1 Yonge.
• Introduction of a Congestion Charge to provide traffic relief to the downtown core. With 3 subway lines downtown Toronto and King being it's own ROW, you drive within a reasonable perimeter, you pay. Period
• On top of the congestion charge, the Federal infrastructure funds and Ontario (Smarttrack funds) to finance the line

5-Line 3 extension north-east to Malvern via Centennial college

• Skytrain from STC to Malvern. As per EA, Sheppard East Station to be underground
• The Line 5 "Relief U" allows Line 2 to handle the extra ridership

6-Waterfront LRT

7-Finch LRT

8-Line 4 Sheppard Subway expansion to Sheppard West and STC to meet Line 3

9-Jane LRT

Great Plan. I love it.

 

[narduch]

World class cities don't cut corners on stuff like that.

Ha! World class cities probably wouldn't even build the SSE. At least not in its current version.

 

[aquateam]

World class cities don't cut corners on stuff like that. If you build transit, be methodical, have a plan and do it right.

What should have happened in that order as time goes by and funds becomes available:

Bold=Priorities by 2031

1-Line 5 Relief Line U: To open by 2020 between Pape Station to Keele via Queen, including West Harbour.

• Paid by Transit City funds

2-SRT Upgrade:

• refurbishment and upgrade of the line
• Rebranded to simply Line 3, no more SRT
• new Mk.III trains
• Rebuild Kennedy station for a Montreal Lionel-Groulx type of station or a cheaper St.Georges station.
• Bury STC station to allow for city planning to properly redevelop the centre into a proper "eastern downtown"
• Underground Triton bus terminal
• Paid by city tax levy and all level of government (1/3 formula)

3-Line 5 extension from Pape to Don Mills & Sheppard

• Line 1 Yonge is officially relieved so no need to call it "Relief line"
• Paid for in part by road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP (while McGuinty was still there). With a Don Mills subway and increased GO service, you use DVP & Gardiner, you pay. Period.

4-Line 3 extension west to Pearson via Eglinton

• Underground between Don Mills and Mount Denis
• Elevated Skytrain from Don Mills to Kennedy & from Mount Dennis to Pearson
• Goes underground at Kennedy to meet Line 2
• Yonge-Eglinton station won't be overcrowded due to the Line 5 station at Don Mills going downtown when the line is opened providing further relief to Line 1 Yonge.
• Introduction of a Congestion Charge to provide traffic relief to the downtown core. With 3 subway lines downtown Toronto and King being it's own ROW, you drive within a reasonable perimeter, you pay. Period
• On top of the congestion charge, the Federal infrastructure funds and Ontario (Smarttrack funds) to finance the line

5-Line 3 extension north-east to Malvern via Centennial college

• Skytrain from STC to Malvern. As per EA, Sheppard East Station to be underground
• The Line 5 "Relief U" allows Line 2 to handle the extra ridership

6-Waterfront LRT

7-Finch LRT

8-Line 4 Sheppard Subway expansion to Sheppard West and STC to meet Line 3

9-Jane LRT

Awesome plan, this is what should have been built.

Not sure how a Line 5 extension goes through Pape. The two planned Line 5 extensions are from Mount Dennis to Renforth/Pearson and from Kennedy to UT Scarborough (and perhaps Sheppard and Malvern). I suppose it could turn west on Sheppard to get to Don Mills/Sheppard - though I'd think they'd prefer to run each service separately.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_5_Eglinton

I suppose from Kennedy, you can run a branch along the Stouffville GO alignment all the way back to the proposed DRL station at Pape and Gerrard (though it's Carlaw now apparently). Given the proposed SmartTrack ridership, it would likely be sufficient capacity. At that point though, it might as well just continue down Dundas, taking over the 505 alignment (there's been some official discussion already of rerouting to the Pape/Carlaw/Gerrard station.

It's certainly an original idea - do you see them using the GO alignment, or were you just thinking along Eglinton/O'Connor and down Pape itself to the existing Pape station?

In Cobra's fantasy scenario, Line 5 is the DRL, not Eglinton, according to the TTC's numbering system. Eglinton is line 3 because it's done as a western extension of the SRT so it wouldn't get a new number.

First of all, calling Eglinton as line 3 and calling the relief line as Line 5 is confusing. Anyways, why would you suggest replacing Eglinton LRT with Mk III trains? All the platforms will need to be rebuild to high floor plus the stations aren't long enough to 6 car trains (each car is ~17.3m and platform is 90m).

You're missing the crux of Cobra's post, he's saying this is what should have been done from Miller's term, not saying how we should move forward from our present situation.

Skytrain tech sucks in Toronto weather oppose to LRT which performs much better. The streetcars and Alberta's LRT systems proves that. Anyways, the contract includes 30 years maintenance so any conversion would be done after 2051 not by 2031. Running a grade separated line over Eglinton East would just divert people more than attract new riders. Besides, what do you suggest to do with all the LRVs with ATO capability? Your plan has gravy written all over the place.

You really shouldn't be using our streetcar system as an example of a paragon of reliability in cold weather. The SRT also has the highest on-time percentage of any TTC line. And I don't see what point you're trying to make with "Running a grade separated line over Eglinton East would just divert people more than attract new riders" because grade-separated transit is actually the most effective way of attracting new riders to transit. For example, see the amazing increase in ridership due to the opening of the Canada line in Vancouver, which was a multiple of the ridership of the bus routes it replaced.

I rather see a crosstown RER line oppose to grade separating Eglinton. It will still take an hour to get from Pearson to Kennedy with SkyTrains or subways. Look how long it takes from Kipling to Kennedy. A good 55 minutes. Subway has SLOWWWWWWW written all over it. A subway ride exceeding half an hour is really unappealing to potential riders. We need to think out the box and stop drawing subway lines all over the place. A Relief line up to Sheppard makes more sense but a frequent and faster RER that doesn't cost an arm and a leg with good connection to local transit would bring in more riders and get people downtown faster.

That reminds me of a quote by the minister of transport about the same subject when designing the Eglinton rapid transit. Originally the plan was to have something fast enough that you could do that.

 

[Palma]

Toronto voted for a transfer free connection between Scarborough and Toronto in the past 2 municipal elections and the last provincial election.

Unfortunately, several variations were tried but the transfer LRT supporters shot down every one except for this 1 stop subway. By default, this is what we get.

sorry I did not vote for tory for a transfer free connection between scarborough and Toronto, How someone can make this connection is insane, By the way its ALL TORONTO now

 

[OneCity]

sorry I did not vote for tory for a transfer free connection between scarborough and Toronto, How someone can make this connection is insane, By the way its ALL TORONTO now

I don't think he meant "you" but the general sense of Mayors taking on a transfer free approach to Scarborough Centre. Even in recent bi election Scarborough's vote was been clear in addition to majority Councillors, to MP's to Mayoral candidates. I don't like Tory's subway rendition but will likely put greater support towards a candidate who views the design of Scarborough's transit integration into the City as important. Obviously there is much more that goes into voting for a candidate but transit is of very high importance and there is a reason the top candidates in the past 2 elections support better connectivity in the greater transit plan in Scarborough.

We are all Toronto as you say and all we can do is vote and hope the people above are looking out for all of our needs. A big part of why Tory is Mayor is fear of the Polarization from either side. His transit plan is a bit of head scratcher in many details but it does address what the majority want in their individual areas fairly well. Just need the Liberals to support him and were in decent shape. Otherwise back to the napkins come election time

 

[pstogios]

Let's be clear here.

The only strategy behind Tory's moves is to win votes. It's pretty obvious that Tory wants to win votes in Scarborough and so he has to pay the tithe to residents there = bring a subway, come hell or high water, no matter how much it costs, no matter how badly underused it will be (aka "The Scarborough Subway / Respect Scarborough Psychosis".

AND, Tory was corrupted by his developer buddies and so he had to push Lametrack.

Then reality kicked in.

The business case is so patently absurd for both the subway extension to Scarborough and Lametrack, and thus the only way Tory could appease his special interests was to neuter the SSE to an over priced one stop subway and cut back massively on Lametrack, so even that plan barely resembles what he campaigned on. Then pursue an agenda of deceiving the public, manipulating the data, overruling city planners, and playing Council using their own Scarborough Psychosis sufferings (GDB are you listening?).

It's such an ugly knot, when we had a fully funded plan appropriate in transit mode to the density and ridership in Scarborough, before all of this bullshit --> all because this man (and Ford before him) is pandering for votes.

This is what happens when you ignore the fundamentals and try to force half-assed solutions.

Even Trump backtracks on stupid plans more than Tory does.

 

[dowlingm]

Toronto voted for a transfer free connection between Scarborough and Toronto in the past 2 municipal elections

Assuming a municipal vote is a mandate on a specific subject - I don't, but let's keep going - the offer to voters was a three stop subway extension. The voters will not get what was offered. Also, if we're clinging to the notion that the voters must get what they voted for, there was also the small matter of Eglinton West SmartTrack, which Tory refused to admit was doomed during the campaign even when called on it. The voters voted for Tory, so he should have delivered it, right? No, he dumped it.

So which is it? Deliver municipal manifesto commitments, or not?

 

[dowlingm]

If the province handed to me a $8B+ cheque for transit, I'd run with the money and the Relief Line would have opened by 2020. It was political, not a wise transit project

You're assuming the 8 billion was available for RL, and not to be liberally spread around Toronto to keep it Red Liberal.

 

[Cobra]

You're assuming the 8 billion was available for RL, and not to be liberally spread around Toronto to keep it Red Liberal.

Miller had more to gain so spread the goods around than the province at the time. The bottom line was that the province invested that money in Toronto. For the most part, they did their part. But Miller spreading the money around was to buy votes even if his strategy made no sense.

Sure the 1-stop subway is none sense, but Transit City ahead of the Relief Line is one of the most idiotic decision this city has ever made. What do you think will happen when Eglinton Crosstown opens? Watch out Eglinton Station because you're about to be the new Bloor with less space.

 

[OneCity]

Funny how Politicians playing Politics is only an issue when it doesn't benefit someone's personal interest? It not like every other project wasn't Politically motivated. Even the RT and Transit City was and TC was more of a Political attempt to put LRT on Sheppard and SCC because even though it wasn't Scarborough preference, amalgamation gave it a chance to happen for the Province when Miller had support. It was called out, with solid support & Ford gave a compromise to SCC, it was denied and Tory opportunistically tapped into the support in Scarborough to become Mayor. Tory's plan is what it is, but covers all areas of the City, and since there is little compromise in the Politics of opponents on both sides he is able to push forward the odd subway and ST combo. I really don't feel sorry for those opponents who are upset with the costs of Tory's plan, they could had agreed to other options or campaigned on a better compromise. Unlike Tory, they chose they're own Politics and chose not to listen to the support for better connectivity to the City in Scarborough.

 

[Steve X]

You really shouldn't be using our streetcar system as an example of a paragon of reliability in cold weather. The SRT also has the highest on-time percentage of any TTC line. And I don't see what point you're trying to make with "Running a grade separated line over Eglinton East would just divert people more than attract new riders" because grade-separated transit is actually the most effective way of attracting new riders to transit. For example, see the amazing increase in ridership due to the opening of the Canada line in Vancouver, which was a multiple of the ridership of the bus routes it replaced.

Except the Canada line is not "SkyTrain" BBD Mk III tech but instead uses conventional subway trains with ATO. The Canada line opened in an area where no rapid transit is found anywhere. Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy isn't quite the same. Initial analysis shows it will just divert riders from the BD line than generate amazing ridership. BD will just loose 20% of it's ridership.

The CLRVs back in the 80s and 90s wasn't as bad as they are today. They are just too old. The new streetcars work just fine in a snowstorm. Ice storms will disable everything. If they do grade separate the entire line, just run some subway trains so they aren't locked to BBD.

 

[dowlingm]

Miller had more to gain so spread the goods around than the province at the time. The bottom line was that the province invested that money in Toronto. For the most part, they did their part. But Miller spreading the money around was to buy votes even if his strategy made no sense.

You are delusional if you think David Miller had sole authority to decide where the Province spent 8 billion on assets they would own.

 

[Cobra]

You are delusional if you think David Miller had sole authority to decide where the Province spent 8 billion on assets they would own.

Until you can back this up instead of calling me "delusional", you'll be wrong until you prove otherwise.

Transit City came from the City and that's the answer you'll get from anyone officials you ask.

Besides, claiming that the Liberals "secretely" manipulated Miller to make Transit City for political reasons is giving them way too much credit.

We all know where the Vaughan Subway came from, same for Subways being the only option in Scarborough.

Does the province owns the Sheppard Line or the City?

 

[OneCity]

You are delusional if you think David Miller had sole authority to decide where the Province spent 8 billion on assets they would own.

It was certainly a joint venture. Although the Province under McGuinty was only interested in delivering LRT on Sheppard and the RT corridor as it was more less a subway savings opportunity for them with Millers blanket LRT preference and with him riding solid support of being Mayor at that time it had a chance. The Province didn't care much for the most effective and supported LRT line on Transit City which was the SMLRT.

Don't get me wrong Transit City wasn't all that bad but Miller knew he went against Scarborough initial preference/request for a subway to SCC and went with the SLRT. He gambled with a blanket plan and it failed in the end. So when it all came crumbling down the Province was fully aware the opportunity had passed and it was time to move on to support the greater Scarborough voter.

Miller coming out before the latest subway vote to tickle the opposition supporters by saying the subway to SCC would not be built shows how out of touch he is on the City wide transit topic. It may not be Tory's subway plan but its far more likely a subway will be built. You cant easily repair the politics of the City forcing a transfer to SCC at this point. So as a City Politician whether you agree with a subway or not, fighting to push in the SLRT or any transfer plan to SCC isn't likely a successful formula in Politics outside of winning a local ward. With the amount of Provincial support we are only a 2018 Ford, Tory or any other subway candidate Mayoralty away from being under construction next term. Going to be interesting with the budget next week. Tory needs the Liberals to support him or things will get ugly