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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

BurlOak said:
Toronto voted for a transfer free connection between Scarborough and Toronto in the past 2 municipal elections and the last provincial election.

Unfortunately, several variations were tried but the transfer LRT supporters shot down every one except for this 1 stop subway. By default, this is what we get.
Click to expand...

They also voted for an LRT solution (fully funded) before that. It's only after two elections of misinformation that the tide has turned.
 
Heck, none of this would have happened if they'd extended the SRT to Malvern as talked about in the 1990s. It would have been too big of a line to can.
 
Cobra said:
Transit City should have never jumped queue ahead of the Relief Line.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with that - it certainly wasn't perfect, even though it had it's own LRT version of a relief line.

Ultimately it seemed like a wise investment though, especially since it provided much needed upgrades to a few priority areas.
 
syn said:
I'd agree with that - it certainly wasn't perfect, even though it had it's own LRT version of a relief line.

Ultimately it seemed like a wise investment though, especially since it provided much needed upgrades to a few priority areas.
Click to expand...

If the province handed to me a $8B+ cheque for transit, I'd run with the money and the Relief Line would have opened by 2020. It was political, not a wise transit project
 
Sure, but how many of the Transit City lines could you say were unnecessary and a waste of money?

There was obviously a political element to the decision, but it offered a comprehensive upgrade in some priority areas.

If I were the Mayor the DRL would be the #1 priority by far - but I don't have a problem with transit dollars being spent in Scarborough if it's being done wisely.
 
syn said:
Sure, but how many of the Transit City lines could you say were unnecessary and a waste of money?

There was obviously a political element to the decision, but it offered a comprehensive upgrade in some priority areas.

If I were the Mayor the DRL would be the #1 priority by far - but I don't have a problem with transit dollars being spent in Scarborough if it's being done wisely.
Click to expand...
Cobra said:
Transit City should have never jumped queue ahead of the Relief Line.
Click to expand...

syn said:
I'd agree with that - it certainly wasn't perfect, even though it had it's own LRT version of a relief line.

Ultimately it seemed like a wise investment though, especially since it provided much needed upgrades to a few priority areas.
Click to expand...

Cobra said:
If the province handed to me a $8B+ cheque for transit, I'd run with the money and the Relief Line would have opened by 2020. It was political, not a wise transit project
Click to expand...

Transit city wasn't about hurting Scarborough. It was about trying to cover the entire for cheap. Didn't work out.
 
syn said:
I posted that in response to the idea that STC would have ridership numbers comparable to Kipling or Islington. I'm sure you can see why that line of thinking makes no sense?

The SSE numbers didn't justify a subway extension before Smart Track.

As Salsa ably pointed out, Tory was elected on the promise of a 3 stop extension - not a $5 billion, 6km vanity line.
Click to expand...

In all fairness though, with the planned 34-bay bus terminal at Scarborough Centre and something like 20 routes converging there, whose to say the SCC stop won't meet or even exceed Kipling numbers? Buses from as far away as Steeles will be rerouted to serve it, making its catchment area quite broad. It may actually be fairer to compare it to Kennedy Stn or Eglinton Stn numbers (~75,000 daily usage).
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Transit city wasn't about hurting Scarborough. It was about trying to cover the entire for cheap. Didn't work out.
Click to expand...

World class cities don't cut corners on stuff like that. If you build transit, be methodical, have a plan and do it right.

What should have happened in that order as time goes by and funds becomes available:

Bold=Priorities by 2031

1-Line 5 Relief Line U: To open by 2020 between Pape Station to Keele via Queen, including West Harbour.
  • Paid by Transit City funds

2-SRT Upgrade:
  • refurbishment and upgrade of the line
  • Rebranded to simply Line 3, no more SRT
  • new Mk.III trains
  • Rebuild Kennedy station for a Montreal Lionel-Groulx type of station or a cheaper St.Georges station.
  • Bury STC station to allow for city planning to properly redevelop the centre into a proper "eastern downtown"
  • Underground Triton bus terminal
  • Paid by city tax levy and all level of government (1/3 formula)
3-Line 5 extension from Pape to Don Mills & Sheppard
  • Line 1 Yonge is officially relieved so no need to call it "Relief line"
  • Paid for in part by road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP (while McGuinty was still there). With a Don Mills subway and increased GO service, you use DVP & Gardiner, you pay. Period.
4-Line 3 extension west to Pearson via Eglinton
  • Underground between Don Mills and Mount Denis
  • Elevated Skytrain from Don Mills to Kennedy & from Mount Dennis to Pearson
  • Goes underground at Kennedy to meet Line 2
  • Yonge-Eglinton station won't be overcrowded due to the Line 5 station at Don Mills going downtown when the line is opened providing further relief to Line 1 Yonge.
  • Introduction of a Congestion Charge to provide traffic relief to the downtown core. With 3 subway lines downtown Toronto and King being it's own ROW, you drive within a reasonable perimeter, you pay. Period
  • On top of the congestion charge, the Federal infrastructure funds and Ontario (Smarttrack funds) to finance the line
5-Line 3 extension north-east to Malvern via Centennial college
  • Skytrain from STC to Malvern. As per EA, Sheppard East Station to be underground
  • The Line 5 "Relief U" allows Line 2 to handle the extra ridership
6-Waterfront LRT

7-Finch LRT

8-Line 4 Sheppard Subway expansion to Sheppard West and STC to meet Line 3

9-Jane LRT
 
Last edited:
Cobra said:
3-Line 5 extension from Pape to Don Mills & Sheppard
Click to expand...
Not sure how a Line 5 extension goes through Pape. The two planned Line 5 extensions are from Mount Dennis to Renforth/Pearson and from Kennedy to UT Scarborough (and perhaps Sheppard and Malvern). I suppose it could turn west on Sheppard to get to Don Mills/Sheppard - though I'd think they'd prefer to run each service separately.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_5_Eglinton

I suppose from Kennedy, you can run a branch along the Stouffville GO alignment all the way back to the proposed DRL station at Pape and Gerrard (though it's Carlaw now apparently). Given the proposed SmartTrack ridership, it would likely be sufficient capacity. At that point though, it might as well just continue down Dundas, taking over the 505 alignment (there's been some official discussion already of rerouting to the Pape/Carlaw/Gerrard station.

It's certainly an original idea - do you see them using the GO alignment, or were you just thinking along Eglinton/O'Connor and down Pape itself to the existing Pape station?
 
drum118 said:
Let them ride buses until the white elephant opens. Go Ask Tory for the money since the system needs it more than here.

Scarborough RT vehicles need repairs to avoid ‘catastrophic’ corrosion failures
Click to expand...
This should be part of the Scarborough subway budget not TTC's capital budget.

Cobra said:
World class cities don't cut corners on stuff like that. If you build transit, be methodical, have a plan and do it right.

What should have happened in that order as time goes by and funds becomes available:

Bold=Priorities by 2031

1-Line 5 Relief Line U: To open by 2020 between Pape Station to Keele via Queen, including West Harbour.
  • Paid by Transit City funds

2-SRT Upgrade:
  • refurbishment and upgrade of the line
  • Rebranded to simply Line 3, no more SRT
  • new Mk.III trains
  • Rebuild Kennedy station for a Montreal Lionel-Groulx type of station or a cheaper St.Georges station.
  • Bury STC station to allow for city planning to properly redevelop the centre into a proper "eastern downtown"
  • Underground Triton bus terminal
  • Paid by city tax levy and all level of government (1/3 formula)
3-Line 5 extension from Pape to Don Mills & Sheppard
  • Line 1 Yonge is officially relieved so no need to call it "Relief line"
  • Paid for in part by road tolls on the Gardiner and DVP (while McGuinty was still there). With a Don Mills subway and increased GO service, you use DVP & Gardiner, you pay. Period.
4-Line 3 extension west to Pearson via Eglinton
  • Underground between Don Mills and Mount Denis
  • Elevated Skytrain from Don Mills to Kennedy & from Mount Dennis to Pearson
  • Goes underground at Kennedy to meet Line 2
  • Yonge-Eglinton station won't be overcrowded due to the Line 5 station at Don Mills going downtown when the line is opened providing further relief to Line 1 Yonge.
  • Introduction of a Congestion Charge to provide traffic relief to the downtown core. With 3 subway lines downtown Toronto and King being it's own ROW, you drive within a reasonable perimeter, you pay. Period
  • On top of the congestion charge, the Federal infrastructure funds and Ontario (Smarttrack funds) to finance the line
5-Line 3 extension north-east to Malvern via Centennial college
  • Skytrain from STC to Malvern. As per EA, Sheppard East Station to be underground
  • The Line 5 "Relief U" allows Line 2 to handle the extra ridership
6-Waterfront LRT

7-Finch LRT

8-Line 4 Sheppard Subway expansion to Sheppard West and STC to meet Line 3

9-Jane LRT
Click to expand...
First of all, calling Eglinton as line 3 and calling the relief line as Line 5 is confusing. Anyways, why would you suggest replacing Eglinton LRT with Mk III trains? All the platforms will need to be rebuild to high floor plus the stations aren't long enough to 6 car trains (each car is ~17.3m and platform is 90m). Skytrain tech sucks in Toronto weather oppose to LRT which performs much better. The streetcars and Alberta's LRT systems proves that. Anyways, the contract includes 30 years maintenance so any conversion would be done after 2051 not by 2031. Running a grade separated line over Eglinton East would just divert people more than attract new riders. Besides, what do you suggest to do with all the LRVs with ATO capability? Your plan has gravy written all over the place.

I rather see a crosstown RER line oppose to grade separating Eglinton. It will still take an hour to get from Pearson to Kennedy with SkyTrains or subways. Look how long it takes from Kipling to Kennedy. A good 55 minutes. Subway has SLOWWWWWWW written all over it. A subway ride exceeding half an hour is really unappealing to potential riders. We need to think out the box and stop drawing subway lines all over the place. A Relief line up to Sheppard makes more sense but a frequent and faster RER that doesn't cost an arm and a leg with good connection to local transit would bring in more riders and get people downtown faster.

Finch LRT should take priority over many projects. Relief line north of Line 2 can wait. Waterfront LRT is necessary for development in the Port Lands.
 
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