Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

Elevation is not possible in the Danforth-McCowan corridor. Cut and cover could cost as little as $175-$200 million per kilometre though and ought to be seriously considered.

Cut and cover is the only way I can think off and wouldn't be surprised they are forced to go there.

Going back to my example, let's say you want to expand your house and someone else was going to pay for it, you'd most likely pick the less intrusive construction technique and best materials increasing the cost. But if you have to put your own money into it, you'd get much more reasonable regarding stuff like that and would look at bring the costs down to get the same result.

Perhaps it's healthy that the city is now forced to pay for subway expansion if it forces them to actively seek to build subway at a cheaper cost

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Please explain?

If they leave it with that singular stop, you would be right, but if they take the alignment long McCowan and eventually build infil stations, then it could spur growth along the line.

Right now we have a one stop subway line, which won't spur growth, which is what I am getting at.

What's more likely to happen is that with the escalated costs and the city raising taxes for that project, it becomes so politically toxic for the mayor's office that he directs the TTC to bring the costs downs (by any mean necessary). Elevation might be back or cut and cover.

Let's not forget that what used to happen was the TTC designing the project and the province just paying for the whole thing...you can understand that finding efficiencies were less pressing than now, especially when you're putting financial pressure on yourself...you want to explore every alternatives to build that subway at lower costs

Elevation is not possible in the Danforth-McCowan corridor. Cut and cover could cost as little as $175-$200 million per kilometre though and ought to be seriously considered.

Cut and cover is the only way I can think off and wouldn't be surprised they are forced to go there.

Going back to my example, let's say you want to expand your house and someone else was going to pay for it, you'd most likely pick the less intrusive construction technique and best materials increasing the cost. But if you have to put your own money into it, you'd get much more reasonable regarding stuff like that and would look at bring the costs down to get the same result.

Perhaps it's healthy that the city is now forced to pay for subway expansion if it forces them to actively seek to build subway at a cheaper cost

It's should be like this Elevation at McCowan, or choose one of the Brimley /SRT corridor. At no point will people pay 3.4 billion for one stop. Elevation on McCowan can be done.

 

[OneCity]

Makes perfect sense. The subway is not going to reverse Scarborough's fortunes.

Long term it will provide a far better foundation for SCC. The 7 Stop LRT was not going too do that much and Scarborough Center would continue to be less attractive with the transfer. Which is and should be a very important place to connect to the City seamlessly

That's why I want to see the Eglinton East extended. Because the two of these lines together will be a major upgrade and if they add more stops to the SSE some day. Bonus. It will likely also be a precursor the Sheppard subway down the road. Another bonus.

No one said its a magic wand. But compare to the transits LRT it will be far more attractive to the core and its about moving forward with a plan that will a solid legacy to build upon in the future.

 

[BurlOak]

Cut and cover is the only way I can think off and wouldn't be surprised they are forced to go there.

Going back to my example, let's say you want to expand your house and someone else was going to pay for it, you'd most likely pick the less intrusive construction technique and best materials increasing the cost. But if you have to put your own money into it, you'd get much more reasonable regarding stuff like that and would look at bring the costs down to get the same result.

Perhaps it's healthy that the city is now forced to pay for subway expansion if it forces them to actively seek to build subway at a cheaper cost

Cut and cover would work along Midland, where there would be no crossing of the Highland Creek. It appears that Highland is too large to just duck under the creek, but not big enough to have a railway under the bridge. Thus, Brimley or McCowan routing could only be half cut and cover and the top portion elevated.

Problem is, it will be hard to make the 300+m radius 90 degree turn from Midland to Ellesmere or SRT corridor. Thus, it may be better to make the (<90 degree) curve to the Gatineau hydro corridor, go trenched or cut-and cover to Brimley, and then switch to elevated with another (<90 degree) curve to McCowan.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Long term it will provide a far better foundation for SCC. The 7 Stop LRT was not going too do that much and Scarborough Center would continue to be less attractive with the transfer. Which is and should be a very important place to connect to the City seamlessly

That's why I want to see the Eglinton East extended. Because the two of these lines together will be a major upgrade and if they add more stops to the SSE some day. Bonus. It will likely also be a precursor the Sheppard subway down the road. Another bonus.

No one said its a magic wand. But compare to the transits LRT it will be far more attractive to the core and its about moving forward with a plan that will a solid legacy to build upon in the future.

If it was through run with Eglinton LRT, then no transfer. The purpose of the LRT was to get people to work at a low cost, and serve more neighborhoods.

In fairness, at this point, it's wait and see for what happens next.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Elevation is not possible in the Danforth-McCowan corridor. Cut and cover could cost as little as $175-$200 million per kilometre though and ought to be seriously considered.

Where did you get $175 Million to $200 Million per kilometre?

 

[Palma]

Toronto experiences something called W-I-N-T-E-R. Exposed infrastructure can experience issues due to the snow and ice that occur in winter. So, tunneling it makes the most sense.

Subway is completely outside when leaving Eglinton west on spadina for 3 stations. Not sure after it leaves wilson

 

[micheal_can]

Subway is completely outside when leaving Eglinton west on spadina for 3 stations. Not sure after it leaves wilson

And they have problems in those uncovered sections.

That is why the less that is uncovered, the better it will be.

 

[Cobra]

And they have problems in those uncovered sections.

That is why the less that is uncovered, the better it will be.

I disagree. It's not as bad as you're trying spin it. Chicago can have brutal winters, New York as well and their system is working.

 

[micheal_can]

I disagree. It's not as bad as you're trying spin it. Chicago can have brutal winters, New York as well and their system is working.

I am not saying that everything comes to a grinding halt (Like what happened when Vancouver gets any snow.) I am saying that it can cause issues, and that by having it covered, those issues are no longer a reason to cause delays.

 

[OneCity]

If it was through run with Eglinton LRT, then no transfer. The purpose of the LRT was to get people to work at a low cost, and serve more neighborhoods.

In fairness, at this point, it's wait and see for what happens next.

I agree that was a fair plan compromise at the time. Not my preference for SCC's connection but had very reasonable value. As you say its wait and see.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And they have problems in those uncovered sections.

That is why the less that is uncovered, the better it will be.

I am not saying that everything comes to a grinding halt (Like what happened when Vancouver gets any snow.) I am saying that it can cause issues, and that by having it covered, those issues are no longer a reason to cause delays.

This is a bad excuse. This is a northern city. You either want these subways built or not.

I disagree. It's not as bad as you're trying spin it. Chicago can have brutal winters, New York as well and their system is working.

Exactly. This is typical Toronto.

 

[BurlOak]

For Yonge @ Rosedale, Davisville, open cut subway allows development of adjacent lands and park on covered subway above tracks.
At Allen, complete glass cover likely costs $10's of Million per km. Still not ridiculously expensive if needed.

 

[micheal_can]

This is a bad excuse. This is a northern city. You either want these subways built or not.

Montreal's is a completely covered system.

 

[rbt]

Montreal's is a completely covered system.

That's actually a defence of denfromoakvillemilton's statement. Montreal has had a dozen expansion plans but a much slower rollout than Toronto over the last 30 years.

Their only expansion with legs at the moment (REM) completely abandons the covered requirement.