Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Palma]

Our only hope is that a 1 stop subway becomes too heavy to defend politically forcing the city to change their construction method to bring costs down. A good compromise could be cut and cover or/and elevation and in exchange they add Lawrence back at lower cost.

Once that thing hits $5B (and it will), for only 1 stop, good luck selling that politically to the rest of the city, even within Scarborough.

I'm of the opinion that the city usually didn't care about that when Queen's Park was paying 100% of the bill, but now that Toronto itself needs to pay with tax increases making them more accountable to taxpayers, it puts them in a situation where they actually must make the effort to bring the costs down

lets hope it reaches $5B fast so that it can be cancelled

 

[OneCity]

lets hope it reaches $5B fast so that it can be cancelled

OK

Yes we hired a 3rd party consultant to find savings so the cost could go up to $5 billion. The "City" and Tory want to move forward not backward here.

 

[rbt]

the ... opposition party in the Province is pro subway

That's debatable. As I recall during the last election they said "subways but only after we balance the budget", and their budget proposals included tax cuts. So yes, they weren't against a subway proposal but they also weren't in favour of paying for it during their term; funding a subway was one of the lowest priority promises.

So, what's Brown's policy? We don't really know as there's no detail on the ordering of the budgets. The question is, will he maintain a deficit budget to fund infrastructure (of any kind) and implement tax adjustments (or massive overhaul of hydro) at the same time.

Also, tax cuts reduces debt the province can take on, so even if infrastructure payments are years away that borrowing space may simply not be there. Happened to Toronto (Gardiner max'd out debt room) and buses needed to be purchased using capital-from-current out of a fare increase.


Thus far Brown's primary voting base wants Hydro addressed and some kind of tax decrease. Infrastructure spending mostly isn't there. The question is just how flexible does he need to be to get 905 votes.

 

[OneCity]

That's debatable. As I recall during the last election they said "subways but only after we balance the budget", and their budget proposals included tax cuts. So yes, they weren't against a subway proposal but they also weren't in favour of paying for it during their term; funding a subway was one of the lowest priority promises.

So, what's Brown's policy? We don't really know as there's no detail on the ordering of the budgets. The question is, will he maintain a deficit budget to fund infrastructure (of any kind) and implement tax adjustments (or massive overhaul of hydro) at the same time.

Also, tax cuts reduces debt the province can take on, so even if infrastructure payments are years away that borrowing space may simply not be there. Happened to Toronto (Gardiner max'd out debt room) and buses needed to be purchased using capital-from-current out of a fare increase.


Thus far Brown's primary voting base wants Hydro addressed and some kind of tax decrease. Infrastructure spending mostly isn't there. The question is just how flexible does he need to be to get 905 votes.

We can debate about the new Brown Conservative platform and that's reasonable because no one knows. I don't think he lasts more than a 4 year term without any investment in infrastructure if he even gets in.

In any event this has zero effect on the SSE and a Mike Harris politics aren't coming back under Brown.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Walk up Yonge Street from Sheppard to Finch and count how many times you need to remind yourself of that. Then take the subway over to Bloor & Islington and count again. Other things can drive development too, but being well-integrated into the regional transit system is a huge driver for that sort of development. Or at the very least, it creates demand for that development - actually having the development happen also relies on a lack of political and physical obstacles, which is why Bloor-Danforth hasn't intensified as much... one side of the road has a subway immediately underneath it and the city refuses to allow development on the other side.

As good as Scarborough's bus service is, it's only useful for travel within Scarborough. That's fine for people who need to go school, shop for groceries or work in the service & industrial jobs nearby, but it's still separated (by two or three transfers) from the rest of the region and people who don't conduct their entire lives in one half of one borough can't depend on it.

Is that the fault of the city, or the people who live there? Who's to say Scarborough residents won't fight development when the subway comes.

I think the computer has trouble looking at more than one fact to calculate its outcome.

We are talking about a massive area of almost 700,000 residents which has been extensively neglected from infrastructure investment and has become isolated from the thriving transit rich areas of the City. Your comment is beyond extreme and I couldn't imagine what you would be trying to achieve here with this kind of vision.

People are leaving to find areas of better opportunity in the GTA where either the Province has either invested in newer transit and/or just as important the individual Municipality has taken serious focus on creating new investment and revitalization. The core of Toronto is thriving off the massive snowball effect of vast legacy investment and legacy planning and since amalgamation there has been very little focus to detail or investment in its inner Suburbs. That's why investment has stagnated & and few people are leaving specific areas. Apathy is large there are too many people without a voice, few have given up and thankfully Politicians are now tapping into this massive neglect, isolation and apathy.

This is the is state of the City and barring a major setback to the currently planned transit projects its likely the last decade we will see such widespread polarization. Thankfully.



This statement is mind boggling its so wrong. Where would you like to start, existing builds or new development proposals?
Surely not the only driver but certainly the largest factor in this City. If anyone else here agrees with your statement ill be glad to debate in greater detail. I'm not convinced this is even close to consensus view.

Well here's the thing: a lot of people don't want to live in Scarborough. It seems it's downtown or Markham, Milton, or Ajax. You need to admit Scarborough has a bad reputation and transit won't just magically fix that.

 

[sixrings]

If you went four years without building that subway would balloon to 8-9 billion. At some point people will put the drl first

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

OK. We can debate about the new Brown Conservative platform and that's reasonable because no one knows. I don't think he lasts more than a 4 year term without any investment in infrastructure.

In any event this has zero effect on the SSE and a Mike Harris Politics aren't coming back under Brown.

That's debatable. As I recall during the last election they said "subways but only after we balance the budget", and their budget proposals included tax cuts. So yes, they weren't against a subway proposal but they also weren't in favour of paying for it during their term; funding a subway was one of the lowest priority promises.

So, what's Brown's policy? We don't really know as there's no detail on the ordering of the budgets. The question is, will he maintain a deficit budget to fund infrastructure (of any kind) and implement tax adjustments (or massive overhaul of hydro) at the same time.

Also, tax cuts reduces debt the province can take on, so even if infrastructure payments are years away that borrowing space may simply not be there. Happened to Toronto (Gardiner max'd out debt room) and buses needed to be purchased using capital-from-current out of a fare increase.


Thus far Brown's primary voting base wants Hydro addressed and some kind of tax decrease. Infrastructure spending mostly isn't there. The question is just how flexible does he need to be to get 905 votes.

Harris politics will come back, or they will get both subways. We'll see.

 

[OneCity]

Is that the fault of the city, or the people who live there? Who's to say Scarborough residents won't fight development when the subway comes.
Well here's the thing: a lot of people don't want to live in Scarborough. It seems it's downtown or Markham, Milton, or Ajax. You need to admit Scarborough has a bad reputation and transit won't just magically fix that.

I have admitted that. Its going to take decades to even start to rejuvenate these bad areas even slightly and similar to change the overall bad perception. But Ill be the first to say Scarborough is one of the most beautiful places in the GTA and people that live here outside the few bad pockets will strongly agree. Its a terribly ridiculous and unfair perception. Ive seriously lived all over the GTA (not Milton but have friends there, not Oakville but Burlington) if not worked. These few small pockets of are the exception and the more the Borough gets connected to the City the more it will be promoted as part of the City. I moved from DT to here for family reasons years ago and I was seriously F'n scared lol, with only having the stigma imprinted in my head until I realized quickly how ridiculous the narrative was and how large and diverse the suburb was.

A well connected Scarborough will be a very desirable place to live in the future in many parts it already is. But yes it will take a long time like all plans do and for those few bad pockets its about stopping the bleed more than anything right now. Many other areas of the Borough will see immediate life just like Golden Mile is proposed to off the LRT extension. There are lots of old plazas and developable real estate that will be completely nuked for large developments changing the streetscape once there is transit on the way. Given the location to the City there is more potential here when transit comes than people give credit.

 

[OneCity]

If you went four years without building that subway would balloon to 8-9 billion. At some point people will put the drl first

They are not delaying the SSE. I don't think youll understand that but its moving forward. Future investment "could" be at risk.

 

[sixrings]

They are not delaying the SSE. I don't think youll understand that. Future investment "could" be at risk.

You are as sure of the subway as the Falcons were of the superbowl

 

[OneCity]

You are as sure of the subway as the Falcons were of the superbowl

There are 2 things you don't do in this world and I posted this a few weeks back here:

1. Never bet against Brady and Belichick
2. Never bet against the Ontario Liberals

Even when they shouldn't win and against all reasonable odds, chances are they will find a way

 

[rbt]

In any event this has zero effect on the SSE

You realize it's almost completely unfunded still right? Promises to fund in the future are quite a bit different than money in the bank.

Recall funds for Spadina actually sat in a trust fund controlled by the city for years before construction started. That was a sure thing.

and a Mike Harris politics aren't coming back under Brown.

Who said anything about Harris? I said last election which was only a couple years ago. Brown is a new figurehead but the bulk of the policy makers haven't changed nor have the general demands of their core voters. Watch their wording very carefully during the election because there is a strong chance they'll be in favour of subways "when we can afford it" which means it's a 2nd term promise not a 1st term promise.

 

[sixrings]

Even thoughI am liberal I must admit that they love to over promise and under deliver (

 

[OneCity]

Even thoughI am liberal I must admit that they love to over promise and under deliver (

Transit is a big Liberal fishing lure and with no one else promising anything close we'll keep taking the bait. I firmly believe Transit City would have been supported had McGuinty funded the SMLRT and to a lesser extent not toyed with Sheppard. He certainly made it extra easy for RoFo to shut it down. Public transit infrastructure funding should be a Federal initiative anyway and until then we will always be toyed with and have insufficient funding.

The Provincial Conservatives also have to come closer to center to win comfortably and stick around so im not concerned. People knew last election the Liberals were broke and corrupt to the bone. But they still walked away with the election. Even if Brown gets a chance, he wont last with a term with standard Conservative tenure.

 

[OneCity]

You realize it's almost completely unfunded still right? Promises to fund in the future are quite a bit different than money in the bank.

The Provincial commitment is static. The City is picking up the difference so I would say theres a better chance the City cancels not the Province. And I see the odds of that happening as extremely low for many Political reasons.