Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

The SRT alignment isn't practical for the subway. I dunno how many times this needs to be posted. There are just too many obstacles. First you have to figure out the curve north from Kennedy, then you have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere & Midland, and then you have to figure out where subway tracks fit in between the Lawrence Avenue bridge and the new Go Train station. And there are also the opportunity costs - it eliminates the potential for a future stop at Lawrence & McCowan and complicates the possibility of a connection to the SELRT whenever that ends up being built. It's not happening.

Possible. But the City specifically went back to study it and there is zero proof that it "cant" be done as of yet. When I read the obstacles your mention above, none of them seem like we need anything more than a good design engineer and some extra concrete. Until I see proof that one of those issues needs a rocket scientist or would put the project near or above the current tunneled budget I cant take that comment at face value. It seems more as though they were taking the path of least resistance as there are indeed many obstacles to work thru, but that path didn't work out.

And im not saying your wrong whatsoever, and if I had to guess you are very likely correct in saying its not happening some reason in your above post. I just want to see the comparison and answers to why it can't be done. From my experience anything can by done for a price and we just need to know the price. We will hopefully be receiving that information very soon.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Maybe the reason they are losing population and stagnating economically is from being isolated in their own City? Amazing how stats can be spun.

And your comment is beyond false as depending upon the area of Scarborough there is support for LRT where it is implemented with reasonable attention to detail. Scarborough is quite a big place and trying to blanket one technology in haste without paying attention to the optics and details is extremely short sighted. Thankfully that ship has sailed.

Finch West also suffers from the same issues and it's is not losing people like that.

 

[BurlOak]

It's about how to implement a subway. RT corridor, elevated, deep tunnel, tunnel, at grade, nothing at all (least likely).

If the B-D subway actually went along Queen Street, then I would be strongly in favour of the B-D extension to STC. As it is, I worry that it will just add to the burden of the Y-B interchange.

That is why I saw the connected SRT with ECLRT as the optimal solution. The SRT would have cut diagonally through Scarborough from Malvern to STC to Kennedy Station to Vic Park to Don Mills. That serves a very big chunk of Scarborough. It also provides more reason to built the DRL to Eglinton. With this everything would be 1 transfer away from Scarborough. Can transfer to B-D (for Yorkville or U of T north) or Markham GO RER (for Union), or transfer to DRL (for City Hall / Financial), or transfer to Yonge (another route downtown), or transfer to Spadina (for U of T south, Hospital Row, or less crowded route downtown). This option would have been by far the best solution for Scarborough.

We must admit though, that Metrolinx has carried the current ECLRT project too far to switch to this solution. So the obvious answer is to do the planned subway extension. The current plan is a 1 stop extension to STC, fully with deep tunnel. The only way I can see getting a less costly design is to spend more money, but make it significantly longer. Lets say a cut-and-cover (from Kennedy Station to Midland/Lawrence and elevated line (from Lawrence/McCowan) to Finch - with stations at Lawrence, STC, Sheppard, and Finch.

Elevate it. Don't know why it has to be tunneled. This can be done for much less then what's currently being proposed.

If we ignore politics and Environmental Assessments, the best is likely to have a whole separate line from Scarborough to downtown - elevated all the way. Go from Malvern to STC to Don Valley to downtown.
Put it along Ellesmere. If they complain about it, put it along Lawrence, or the Gatineau Hydro corridor. Either way, state firmly that this will be elevated, and if one group objects, the alternative is a different route. The alternative is not deep tunneled construction.

Politically, a new line will be viewed like SmartTrack - and there will be little confidence from the electorate about it being feasible.
Could a politician promise the Sheppard subway instead of the B-D extension - saying that the route is already determined and B-D still needs more analysis? Then over the next 4 years, they be able to study and implement an improved solution to the current B-D extension.

 

[44 North]

Finch West also suffers from the same issues and it's is not losing people like that.

Finch W and Sheppard W also saw some net zero changes or drops. Dunno if it's as large as what the Star article claims for tracts of Scarb (+10%), but seas of orange seem roughly even across the board for older, stable residential areas. I don't think Scarboro stands out in any overly significant way.

 

[OneCity]

Finch West also suffers from the same issues and it's is not losing people like that.

You have to compare specific neighbourhoods. Comparing Finch West to "Scarborough" is not realistic. The issue for Scarborough in general is overall lack of investment and lack of connection to the quality jobs areas in the City, coupled with the problem of snowballing "Priority Neighbourhoods" which have morphed from a handful of aging pockets with old buildings which were built for a completely different purpose in a previous era. As they aged and lower income residents settled these buildings have been paired with lower income, low quality developments, these areas are completely isolated from the transit grid with no quality revitalization plan aside from ensuring they receive more help with low income services. So it shouldn't be hard to understand why this is snowballing and people are leaving to safer areas of opportunity and Government investment in the 905 suburbs or areas of the City where the Government has invested in transit decades ago and is knowing witnessing rapid growth?

Although these areas are a small exceptions to the overall landscape of Scarborough, many of these areas front or are quite visible from major roadways and that also does not help the Scarborough image for investment and comfort. Transit is only one issue to be addressed here moving forward but not only will it allow lower income families greater opportunities to the job cores, which they don't have, revitalization opportunities can now be improved as we can clearly see the correlation between investment and quality transit in this City, when combined with a long term development addressing all income classes.

This map is by no means an indicator that we shouldn't be building rapid transit to our inner suburbs. Its quite the opposite. Its shows we have two separate needs, one of growth and one of decay which both need to be addressed simultaneously

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If the B-D subway actually went along Queen Street, then I would be strongly in favour of the B-D extension to STC. As it is, I worry that it will just add to the burden of the Y-B interchange.

That is why I saw the connected SRT with ECLRT as the optimal solution. The SRT would have cut diagonally through Scarborough from Malvern to STC to Kennedy Station to Vic Park to Don Mills. That serves a very big chunk of Scarborough. It also provides more reason to built the DRL to Eglinton. With this everything would be 1 transfer away from Scarborough. Can transfer to B-D (for Yorkville or U of T north) or Markham GO RER (for Union), or transfer to DRL (for City Hall / Financial), or transfer to Yonge (another route downtown), or transfer to Spadina (for U of T south, Hospital Row, or less crowded route downtown). This option would have been by far the best solution for Scarborough.

We must admit though, that Metrolinx has carried the current ECLRT project too far to switch to this solution. So the obvious answer is to do the planned subway extension. The current plan is a 1 stop extension to STC, fully with deep tunnel. The only way I can see getting a less costly design is to spend more money, but make it significantly longer. Lets say a cut-and-cover (from Kennedy Station to Midland/Lawrence and elevated line (from Lawrence/McCowan) to Finch - with stations at Lawrence, STC, Sheppard, and Finch.



If we ignore politics and Environmental Assessments, the best is likely to have a whole separate line from Scarborough to downtown - elevated all the way. Go from Malvern to STC to Don Valley to downtown.
Put it along Ellesmere. If they complain about it, put it along Lawrence, or the Gatineau Hydro corridor. Either way, state firmly that this will be elevated, and if one group objects, the alternative is a different route. The alternative is not deep tunneled construction.

Politically, a new line will be viewed like SmartTrack - and there will be little confidence from the electorate about it being feasible.
Could a politician promise the Sheppard subway instead of the B-D extension - saying that the route is already determined and B-D still needs more analysis? Then over the next 4 years, they be able to study and implement an improved solution to the current B-D extension.

I can agree with this. But here's the thing: They want both subways, and there's no way around that. Both are going to be built at some point, we opened that door when Bloor was approved. I just hope it is above ground and efficient.

Finch W and Sheppard W also saw some net zero changes or drops. Dunno if it's as large as what the Star article claims for tracts of Scarb (+10%), but seas of orange seem roughly even across the board for older, stable residential areas. I don't think Scarboro stands out in any overly significant way.

View attachment 98186

You have to compare specific neighbourhoods. Comparing Finch West to "Scarborough" is not realistic. The issue for Scarborough in general is overall lack of investment and lack of connection to the quality jobs areas in the City, coupled with the problem of snowballing "Priority Neighbourhoods" which have morphed from a handful of aging pockets with old buildings which were built for a completely different purpose in a previous era. As they aged and lower income residents settled these buildings have been paired with lower income, low quality developments, these areas are completely isolated from the transit grid with no quality revitalization plan aside from ensuring they receive more help with low income services. So it shouldn't be hard to understand why this is snowballing and people are leaving to safer areas of opportunity and Government investment in the 905 suburbs or areas of the City where the Government has invested in transit decades ago and is knowing witnessing rapid growth?

Although these areas are a small exceptions to the overall landscape of Scarborough, many of these areas front or are quite visible from major roadways and that also does not help the Scarborough image for investment and comfort. Transit is only one issue to be addressed here moving forward but not only will it allow lower income families greater opportunities to the job cores, which they don't have, revitalization opportunities can now be improved as we can clearly see the correlation between investment and quality transit in this City, when combined with a long term development addressing all income classes.

This map is by no means an indicator that we shouldn't be building rapid transit to our inner suburbs. Its quite the opposite. Its shows we have two separate needs, one of growth and one of decay which both need to be addressed simultaneously

In truth, North Etobicoke and Scarborough are going to continue to suffer from this as long as we have no plan to cut down on poverty. Transit will provide jobs, but that is not the whole solution. The Star loves downtown and the 905, but does not like the inner 416.

 

[WislaHD]

Those damn illegal Torontonians. And to think if we do this and find a way to derail the GO train in 20 years time we will have successfully closed off any reasonable access into the City core during working hours for these suburban's parasites. And just like Mexicans, the Scarberians as some call them will even be helping pay for this wall.

I really hope you are not serious. But sadly you just might be

I have no clue what you are insinuating with this example.

I thought the purpose was to cut down commute times, improve commute comforts, provide a direct route downtown and reduce the number of transfers for Scarborough residents. The DRL to Sheppard would do all of this and more.

Scarborough Subway forces commuters to travel a different direction from their destination via a gerrymandered bus route to the forced transit hub at STC, so that they can be stuck in a 6km tunnel (the length of King to Davisville!!!) just to reach Kennedy. From there, they must continue on a long commute on Danforth before meeting the horrifying transfer point at Bloor-Yonge.

In contrast, the DRL cuts bus routes in half (improving comfort/crowdedness, speed, freqency and reliability), provides Scarborough commuters with a direct and drastically quicker connection to downtown. Scarborough residents will never be travelling in the opposite direction of their destination to reach a rapid transit hub (like at STC). They'll probably get seats too!

Would you say "is that you, Josh?" to WislaHD. As I don't think Matlow in all his SSE disdain would ever say something as disrespectful and selfish as what was said in the post I responded too.

Yes, heaven forbid I support the one transit line that fixes everyone's problems in the city, especially Scarborough residents.

Because that Federal program which pays half of shovel ready public transit projects won't be around forever. It goes "bye bye" post 2025, hence pushing all our projects to shovel ready status and submit them for funding. The city can do its part to raise its share of the capital costs with revenue tools and/or emitting bonds. We have a short window to get all those projects built. I suggest you see the bigger picture instead of endlessly trying to prove a point

I'm fine with this, if it is the objective. There needs to be no illusion that there are priorities before the DRL however.

 

[WislaHD]

The SRT alignment isn't practical for the subway. I dunno how many times this needs to be posted. There are just too many obstacles. First you have to figure out the curve north from Kennedy, then you have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere & Midland, and then you have to figure out where subway tracks fit in between the Lawrence Avenue bridge and the new Go Train station. And there are also the opportunity costs - it eliminates the potential for a future stop at Lawrence & McCowan and complicates the possibility of a connection to the SELRT whenever that ends up being built. It's not happening.

Really? Figuring out the curve north of Kennedy and building a new tunnel at Ellsemere & Midland is worth spending billions more on a McCowan alignment? It isn't worth studying for a fair pros/cons analysis with alternative options?

Scarborough wants a subway and STC is the hub not Sheppard. The missed opportunities are unfortunate, but are things that should be weighed in a pro/con analysis. As others said, the SSE-McCowan is coming to upwards of $3.4 Billion.

That is why I saw the connected SRT with ECLRT as the optimal solution. The SRT would have cut diagonally through Scarborough from Malvern to STC to Kennedy Station to Vic Park to Don Mills. That serves a very big chunk of Scarborough. It also provides more reason to built the DRL to Eglinton. With this everything would be 1 transfer away from Scarborough. Can transfer to B-D (for Yorkville or U of T north) or Markham GO RER (for Union), or transfer to DRL (for City Hall / Financial), or transfer to Yonge (another route downtown), or transfer to Spadina (for U of T south, Hospital Row, or less crowded route downtown). This option would have been by far the best solution for Scarborough.

We must admit though, that Metrolinx has carried the current ECLRT project too far to switch to this solution. So the obvious answer is to do the planned subway extension.

Definitely the ideal plan. Plus it would have justified grade-separating Leslie, and we could have had split services heading to STC and to Malvern via Crosstown East.

Unfortunately, I believe you are a correct that it is too late now to change plans.

This map is by no means an indicator that we shouldn't be building rapid transit to our inner suburbs. Its quite the opposite. Its shows we have two separate needs, one of growth and one of decay which both need to be addressed simultaneously

Population is decreasing, therefore we need to expand transit services. Something does not compute there.

You are falling for the same tired 'logic' that transit expansion drives land-use change and population growth. It does not. Decades of studies have shown that to be empirically false across North America. Rapid transit is but one of many many factors that influence long-term growth and revitalization of areas.

It needs to be said that Scarborough is not currently 'lacking' for public transit. Yes, it does not have a subway. But it has a rapid transit like in the SRT (with all of it's flaws), alongside a great number of bus routes on it's arterials with high frequency and reliability. Yes, the bus routes are inadequate and unreliable compared to Toronto standards, but it is still rather continentally unique in their frequency and reliability, especially so when compared to other (sub)urban areas of Scarborough's build form in North America. You might laugh, but other cities send their transit planners to Toronto to study how well our bus routes serve people in suburbs like Scarborough.

Public transit (as inadequate as it may be) is not absent from Scarborough, and yet it is still in a state of 'decay' to use your words. There is zero indication to support the idea that a lack of public transit is responsible for this decay, or that upgrading to rapid transit would change that trend.

We can discuss of course what can be done with Scarborough's present land uses to stop this 'decay', but it starts with an admittance that it won't be singlely solved by building a (poorly-thought out, political) subway.

 

[amnesiajune]

You are falling for the same tired 'logic' that transit expansion drives land-use change and population growth. It does not.

Walk up Yonge Street from Sheppard to Finch and count how many times you need to remind yourself of that. Then take the subway over to Bloor & Islington and count again. Other things can drive development too, but being well-integrated into the regional transit system is a huge driver for that sort of development. Or at the very least, it creates demand for that development - actually having the development happen also relies on a lack of political and physical obstacles, which is why Bloor-Danforth hasn't intensified as much... one side of the road has a subway immediately underneath it and the city refuses to allow development on the other side.

As good as Scarborough's bus service is, it's only useful for travel within Scarborough. That's fine for people who need to go school, shop for groceries or work in the service & industrial jobs nearby, but it's still separated (by two or three transfers) from the rest of the region and people who don't conduct their entire lives in one half of one borough can't depend on it.

 

[OneCity]

Population is decreasing, therefore we need to expand transit services. Something does not compute there.

I think the computer has trouble looking at more than one fact to calculate its outcome.

We are talking about a massive area of almost 700,000 residents which has been extensively neglected from infrastructure investment and has become isolated from the thriving transit rich areas of the City. Your comment is beyond extreme and I couldn't imagine what you would be trying to achieve here with this kind of vision.

People are leaving to find areas of better opportunity in the GTA where either the Province has either invested in newer transit and/or just as important the individual Municipality has taken serious focus on creating new investment and revitalization. The core of Toronto is thriving off the massive snowball effect of vast legacy investment and legacy planning and since Amalgamation there has been very little focus to detail or investment in its inner Suburbs. That's why investment has stagnated & and few people are leaving specific areas. Apathy is large there are too many people without a voice, few have given up and thankfully Politicians are now tapping into this massive neglect, isolation and apathy.

This is the is state of the City and barring a major setback to the currently planned transit projects and the bridges moving forward within this is likely the last decade we will see such widespread polarization. Thankfully.

You are falling for the same tired 'logic' that transit expansion drives land-use change and population growth. It does not

This statement is mind boggling its so wrong. Where would you like to start, existing builds or new development proposals?
Surely not the only driver but certainly the largest factor in this City. If anyone else here agrees with your statement ill be glad to debate in greater detail. I'm not convinced this is even close to consensus view.

 

[sixrings]

One could argue that scarborough builds it's own walls when it advocates for costly improbable projects at the expense of affordable shovel ready projects

 

[OneCity]

One could argue that scarborough builds it's own walls when it advocates for costly improbable projects at the expense of affordable shovel ready projects

Actually the cost are still being worked out? And Scarborough has not asked for anything different than what is being built in comparable areas of the City and now to lesser areas of the GTA. The shovel ready projected was rejected for a reason and another one is likely to follow for a similar reason.

Scarborough is building bridges now and I'll thank you in advance for your contribution as well we have and will be doing the same for expensive projects through the City

 

[sixrings]

Unless you are digging the tunnel yourself I wouldn't say that scarborough is building anything because your own admission is that scarborough cancels shovel ready projects

 

[OneCity]

Unless you are digging the tunnel yourself I wouldn't say that scarborough is building anything because your own admission is that scarborough cancels shovel ready projects

Of course anything can happen in life and there are never any guarantees.

But this is a very different and unique time right now Politically. This "real" City opposition threat is pro subway, the current and opposition party in the Province is pro subway and the Feds are at the table for 50% of anything we can get shovel ready. The City wont be wasting much more time here so there is little doubt.

I also highly doubt even ill be much of a fan of the # of stops or the alignment. But we will soon get the report where I fully expect to see a plan of attack to move forward, then there will likely be a climatic tantrum from the usual media outlets accompanied by some regurgitated quotes from their Political spokesman and we will be moving forward. And as long as the subway and the Eglinton LRT extension are both carried thru the entire design to get the LRT's Federal grant which is surely happening anyway as its paid for already. Ill be quite satisfied and Tory will likely keep and possibly gain a bit on his support level in Scarborough.

If by some unexpected (unless you truly believe the fear mongering assault from the Star/Metroland) reason the subway is cancelled, good luck to us all moving anything forward in this City as we will fall right off rails politically. And it's a tight rope to begin with these days as we should all be aware.

Anyway the latter wont happen.

 

[Palma]

the city caved also by giving Leslie a stop at Eglinton. Im just skeptical that anyone has the balls to actually not cave. As long as one person complains then the caving begins.

Boy, i wish I had known it was this easy so I could have complained to my coucillor to get one of the Keele LRT stations (retheway and Eglinton) moved 100 metres to the east along Eglinton.