Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[micheal_can]

At this time EC dead ends at UTSC and doesn't go into Malvern (yet) like the SMLRT kinda did. In any event I agree with your plan to move forward. It's a very likely 15-20 year outcome as well.

There are many projects that are needed. The real problem is that there is such a rapid transit deficit that it doesn't matter what is proposed, everyone will simply want more. If they only built subways, and they built one new line every 5 years, in 25 years, we would still not be at a point that we have enough. The same could be said for LRT and Streetcar lines.

 

[OneCity]

There are many projects that are needed. The real problem is that there is such a rapid transit deficit that it doesn't matter what is proposed, everyone will simply want more. If they only built subways, and they built one new line every 5 years, in 25 years, we would still not be at a point that we have enough. The same could be said for LRT and Streetcar lines.

Yes the real shame is we don't have a proper Federal funding plan. Even these current funded and unfunded proposed lines will spur growth once built and in turn cause expansion needs 50 years from now, other areas within the GTA will be needed more lines as they are now beginning to be building around rapid transit. This doesn't end and we need to be responsible about planning funds and ensure we are not cutting corners on design and have to go back. The extra cost now will be drops in the bucket in the bigger picture.

Without this long term Federal funding plan we are chasing our tails and arguing over insufficient scraps

 

[BurlOak]

I just don't see a political alternative to building the Scarborough Subway. There were quiet grumblings when David Miller brought in Transit City and the continuation of the segregated SRT with transfer. When Ford was elected, people just wanted Scarborough connected and the combined SRT/ECLRT was born. Within a year, this was killed in an effort to stop Ford. Realizing what a mess they made, both the Provincial Liberals and City Council has for 5 years now been telling the public that Scarborough deserves a subway and nothing but a tunneled subway will do.

It just seems too risky for any party to campaign against the subway. If you go back to Transit City, the same segregated Scaroborough arguments will be made. If you propose something else (cut-and-cover subway, Smart Spur - a branch of the SmartTrack, or a whole new line from Malvern to Centennial to STC to Don Valley to Downtown), the public will view it as not equivalent to the subway that is currently on the table, and also as an attempt to defer construction of anything for Scarborough. The only chance is for a political party to lie or deceive during the election campaign (say your in favour of the Scarborough Subway with some caveat), and then shorten planning, and begin construction, and be well through construction, before the subsequent election. The only thing that can be built this fast is an elevated line.

 

[OneCity]

I just don't see a political alternative to building the Scarborough Subway. There were quiet grumblings when David Miller brought in Transit City and the continuation of the segregated SRT with transfer. When Ford was elected, people just wanted Scarborough connected and the combined SRT/ECLRT was born. Within a year, this was killed in an effort to stop Ford. Realizing what a mess they made, both the Provincial Liberals and City Council has for 5 years now been telling the public that Scarborough deserves a subway and nothing but a tunneled subway will do.

It just seems too risky for any party to campaign against the subway. If you go back to Transit City, the same segregated Scaroborough arguments will be made. If you propose something else (cut-and-cover subway, Smart Spur - a branch of the SmartTrack, or a whole new line from Malvern to Centennial to STC to Don Valley to Downtown), the public will view it as not equivalent to the subway that is currently on the table, and also as an attempt to defer construction of anything for Scarborough. The only chance is for a political party to lie or deceive during the election campaign (say your in favour of the Scarborough Subway with some caveat), and then shorten planning, and begin construction, and be well through construction, before the subsequent election. The only thing that can be built this fast is an elevated line.

Agree its happening. The shame is in 5 years we have yet to see the price comparison of the SLRT vs. the subway on the same route. We may or may not see it soon in the upcoming report. I get the reason for tunneling to keep the RT up but its shouldn't be debated against elevated LRT. That's been an irresponsible ongoing argument from the opposition from day one and the media still plays it like a broken record to this day. It has truly dumbed down the discussion for far too long.

 

[amnesiajune]

The shame is in 5 years we have yet to see the price comparison of the SLRT vs. the subway on the same route.

The SRT alignment isn't practical for the subway. I dunno how many times this needs to be posted. There are just too many obstacles. First you have to figure out the curve north from Kennedy, then you have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere & Midland, and then you have to figure out where subway tracks fit in between the Lawrence Avenue bridge and the new Go Train station. And there are also the opportunity costs - it eliminates the potential for a future stop at Lawrence & McCowan and complicates the possibility of a connection to the SELRT whenever that ends up being built. It's not happening.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The SRT alignment isn't practical for the subway. I dunno how many times this needs to be posted. There are just too many obstacles. First you have to figure out the curve north from Kennedy, then you have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere & Midland, and then you have to figure out where subway tracks fit in between the Lawrence Avenue bridge and the new Go Train station. And there are also the opportunity costs - it eliminates the potential for a future stop at Lawrence & McCowan and complicates the possibility of a connection to the SELRT whenever that ends up being built. It's not happening.

Really? The SRT alingment hits more traffic points and you can have a stop at Lawrence and Ellesmere if you want. McCowan's only benefit is the hospital and that's now been taken out. SRT can also come in under 2.5 billion, currently we are at 3.4 and rising...

Brimley was the best option for me.

 

[amnesiajune]

The SRT alignment hits more traffic points and you can have a stop at Lawrence and Ellesmere if you want.

What do you mean by "more traffic points"? Midland and Ellesmere are useless stops, which is why they were left out of the RER plan. Lawrence East has lower ridership than 61 of 69 subway stations, and Go Transit already plans on building a stop there, which eliminates the possibility of a surface subway - it would have to be elevated or tunnelled, and if it's elevated then the Lawrence Avenue bridge would probably need to be modified.

McCowan's only benefit is the hospital and that's now been taken out.

The station could still be added in the future if they build the subway with that in mind (i.e. have a flat, straight section where the station would be). The TTC has added a station before and has two other station-ready track segments on Yonge.

SRT can also come in under 2.5 billion, currently we are at 3.4 and rising...

Are LRTs magically immune to cost increases?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What do you mean by "more traffic points"? Midland and Ellesmere are useless stops, which is why they were left out of the RER plan. Lawrence East has lower ridership than 61 of 69 subway stations, and Go Transit already plans on building a stop there, which eliminates the possibility of a surface subway - it would have to be elevated or tunnelled, and if it's elevated then the Lawrence Avenue bridge would probably need to be modified.

Elevate it. Don't know why it has to be tunneled. This can be done for much less then what's currently being proposed.

The station could still be added in the future if they build the subway with that in mind (i.e. have a flat, straight section where the station would be). The TTC has added a station before and has two other station-ready track segments on Yonge.

Give the track record of the TTC, we don't know if they will actually do it. That was years ago.

Are LRTs magically immune to cost increases?

I mean't the the LRT route. It's still be a better option then 3.4 + for one stop. With low ridership.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The SRT alignment isn't practical for the subway. I dunno how many times this needs to be posted. There are just too many obstacles. First you have to figure out the curve north from Kennedy, then you have to build a new tunnel at Ellesmere & Midland, and then you have to figure out where subway tracks fit in between the Lawrence Avenue bridge and the new Go Train station. And there are also the opportunity costs - it eliminates the potential for a future stop at Lawrence & McCowan and complicates the possibility of a connection to the SELRT whenever that ends up being built. It's not happening.

Posted before, will post it again:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

Odd that we can actually find a fairly detailed proposal on this impossible alignment, and yet couldn't even come up with a final alignment and cost for the current proposal. If you can spend 3+B to build a one stop extension, I am sure you can resolve said issues. The current situation is entirely self-inflicted.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ay_murray_proposes_shorter_twostop_route.html

http://globalnews.ca/news/824495/tt...oncerns-over-murrays-scarborough-subway-plan/

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...s_subway_plan_after_meeting_with_premier.html

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

Odd that we can actually find a fairly detailed proposal on this impossible alignment

That detailed proposal would require completely rebuilding Kennedy station (i.e. the subway would have to be shortened to Warden for a few years) and building an elevated guideway through the middle of the city's public works facility. It also predates Go RER and the Lawrence East station that it includes.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That detailed proposal would require completely rebuilding Kennedy station (i.e. the subway would have to be shortened to Warden for a few years) and building an elevated guideway through the middle of the city's public works facility. It also predates Go RER and the Lawrence East station that it includes.

So? Kennedy is already getting rebuilt in some way given ECLRT (and lord knows the city have necessitated changes to that interchange design over and over again), and if you read the proposal, it doesn't require shutting it down for a few years - only intermittently.


Building an elevated guideway through the middle of city's public work facility is the least of anyone's problem (it's only a few salt silos) - I am sure it'd raise less stink than say bulldozing a woodlot. I mean, are we really going to make a decision because we don't want to build a guideway through THIS?

And yes, GO RER, as mentioned - the situation is entirely self-inflicted. So how much does it all cost now?

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

According to this link,

Several neighbourhoods in Scarborough lost more than 10 per cent of their populations, for example, according to data from the census tract level.

While

In the Toronto city centre, several areas saw their populations double or more from 2011 to 2016. One standout is the area along Queen St. W. between Shaw St. and Dovercourt, which saw its population shoot up 109.2 per cent over the five-year period, the data shows.

Liberty Village has also seen large growth, with a population increase of 174.9 per cent over the five-year measurement period.

Why does Scarborough want a subway again and not a LRT again?

 

[OneCity]

According to this link,

While

Why does Scarborough want a subway again and not a LRT again?

Maybe the reason they are losing population and stagnating economically is from being isolated in their own City? Amazing how stats can be spun.

And your comment is beyond false as depending upon the area of Scarborough there is support for LRT where it is implemented with reasonable attention to detail. Scarborough is quite a big place and trying to blanket one technology in haste without paying attention to the optics and details is extremely short sighted. Thankfully that ship has sailed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why does Scarborough want a subway again and not a LRT again?

It's really not about LRT at this point anymore.

AoD

 

[Leo_Chan]

Why does Scarborough want a subway again and not a LRT again?

It's really not about LRT at this point anymore.

It's about how to implement a subway. RT corridor, elevated, deep tunnel, tunnel, at grade, nothing at all (least likely).