Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[smallspy]

Apparently, SRT would be more attractive for trips within Scarborough, because of the Centennial College and Sheppard / Progress stations.

However, the subway would be better for long trips to downtown, or locations close to the BD line outside Scarborough. Those trips are hardest to facilitate because they are long.

If that were the case, then the ridership numbers downstream on the B-D would be much higher than there are today, wouldn't they be?

Maybe its my memory going, but I don't recall seeing that in any of the reports published.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[WislaHD]

1 year is a long time.

It's got me thinking, what exactly can we expect to see on the Scarborough Subway portfolio over the next year? Where are we at, at the moment, when it comes to building this subway?

 

[sixrings]

1 year is a long time.

It's got me thinking, what exactly can we expect to see on the Scarborough Subway portfolio over the next year? Where are we at, at the moment, when it comes to building this subway?

where are we with every project? Is finch still a 100% go? when do we debate on Eglinton west? when do we hear on the DRL? And when does smarttrack actually begin. Tory made smarttrack sound like it was a 1 on 2 years away during election. now were in the second year, I don't know what it is, and I don't know when itll be in service.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

where are we with every project? Is finch still a 100% go? when do we debate on Eglinton west? when do we hear on the DRL? And when does smarttrack actually begin. Tory made smarttrack sound like it was a 1 on 2 years away during election. now were in the second year, I don't know what it is, and I don't know when itll be in service.

Tory lied to you.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am all for DRL going to Fairview Mall. But that's a 16-km project, which will have a lot more engineering challenges than SSE. Obviously, Long DRL will not happen in one phase; we would be lucky to get it to Eglinton in one shot, but more likely to get Danforth in Phase 1, Eglinton in Phase 2, and Fairview in Phase 3.

Agreed, but the feeling is that all these subways will be built. Is it good or bad is my long term question.

@pstogios and @coffey1 have both been banned for 1 year, yes, 1 year because even after being told no more ad hominem just a day ago, they could not stop themselves.

Some other posts which copied their ad hominem attacks have been removed too, but no other action will be taken against those members.

We might—might—invite @pstog and @coff back sooner, but no guarantee. If anyone wants to offer commentary about the bans, then start a new thread in the Forum Issues section, and add a @interchange42 to the post if you want to get my attention.

I apologize to you if this action seems a little strident, but these guys have both frequently disturbed the peace around here, and we want a forum where you can all discuss actual issues without getting derailed by others' personal dramas. I hope this helps, but like I said, if you want to offer commentary, head for the Forum Issues section and get a thread going there.

42

Fair enough. Thanks for keeping as within the rules.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is all in the Eglinton Crosstown Benefits Case Analysis (which is a pretty interesting document).

Some screenshots: (the buried SRT/ECLRT is Option 4 in this report.)

View attachment 89233

View attachment 89234
View attachment 89235

This options was dangerously close to capacity. Anticipated to be at nearly 85% only 10 years after opening, with no clear way of increasing capacity. This alignment needed to be built as heavy rail subway or not be built at all.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^an easy way is increase frequency. The report proposed 4 minute frequencies.. the ECLRT is capable of 1.5 on grade seperated portions.

 

[sixrings]

Tory lied to you.

Don't worry I didn't believe him

 

[sixrings]

Agreed, but the feeling is that all these subways will be built. Is it good or bad is my long term question.




Fair enough. Thanks for keeping as within the rules.

I'm a little more skeptical since the plans keep changing, things keep getting more expensive and no one wants to pay for it.

 

[WislaHD]

This options was dangerously close to capacity. Anticipated to be at nearly 85% only 10 years after opening, with no clear way of increasing capacity. This alignment needed to be built as heavy rail subway or not be built at all.

Would that have mattered as much if we built the Relief Line to Eglinton?

Sure, the Crosstown would have come close to peak capacity on the east end, but we could have done well to mitigate that by adding a transfer point at Don Mills and Eglinton. Most people heading eastbound on AM peak hour would transfer at Kennedy or Don Mills before reaching peak capacity.

And obviously, the price for not going with this option is that all those people are now on Line 2, heading to the crush point at Bloor-Yonge.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Peak point ridership approaching don mills would've been near 12.5k pphpd. So unless the relief line went east of Don Mills, Eglinton would still be over capacity not very long after the line opened.

 

[rbt]

Peak point ridership approaching don mills would've been near 12.5k pphpd. So unless the relief line went east of Don Mills, Eglinton would still be over capacity not very long after the line opened.

Bloor doesn't cease to exist for those who feel the Eglinton squeeze is too much. Also Yonge needs capacity to carry them when they try to transfer or the Fire Chief will eliminate the stop at Yonge & Eglinton during rush due to platform crowding (another reason to take Bloor which reliably stops at Yonge).

Putting more money into Eglinton doesn't actually give the network any additional capacity. That money needs to be diverted into something going where the people are going (DRL is a great example, 4th track on Lake Shore East would be another).

Any effort to move ridership away from Yonge also spreads out the peak ridership on our East/West lines.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This options was dangerously close to capacity. Anticipated to be at nearly 85% only 10 years after opening, with no clear way of increasing capacity. This alignment needed to be built as heavy rail subway or not be built at all.

^an easy way is increase frequency. The report proposed 4 minute frequencies.. the ECLRT is capable of 1.5 on grade seperated portions.

Would that have mattered as much if we built the Relief Line to Eglinton?

Sure, the Crosstown would have come close to peak capacity on the east end, but we could have done well to mitigate that by adding a transfer point at Don Mills and Eglinton. Most people heading eastbound on AM peak hour would transfer at Kennedy or Don Mills before reaching peak capacity.

And obviously, the price for not going with this option is that all those people are now on Line 2, heading to the crush point at Bloor-Yonge.

Peak point ridership approaching don mills would've been near 12.5k pphpd. So unless the relief line went east of Don Mills, Eglinton would still be over capacity not very long after the line opened.

Bloor doesn't cease to exist for those who feel the Eglinton squeeze is too much. Also Yonge needs capacity to carry them when they try to transfer or the Fire Chief will eliminate the stop at Yonge & Eglinton during rush due to platform crowding (another reason to take Bloor which reliably stops at Yonge).

Putting more money into Eglinton doesn't actually give the network any additional capacity. That money needs to be diverted into something going where the people are going (DRL is a great example, 4th track on Lake Shore East would be another).

Any effort to move ridership away from Yonge also spreads out the peak ridership on our East/West lines.

Eglinton should have been a subway from day one! From the original Transit City plan. That would have avoided all this crap. The Ford-McGuinty Option was the best plan because it made Eglinton viable as a major route, would have brought a huge amount of money via fares and would have justified the DRL from Weston to Fairview Mall like it should have been in the first place.

Don't worry I didn't believe him

Heh.

I'm a little more skeptical since the plans keep changing, things keep getting more expensive and no one wants to pay for it.

Exactly, that's the problem. If you want the Scarborough, Sheppard subways, man up and pay for it.

 

[44 North]

It is all in the Eglinton Crosstown Benefits Case Analysis (which is a pretty interesting document).

Some screenshots: (the buried SRT/ECLRT is Option 4 in this report.)

Oh right, thanks. Surprised they used such low frequency (5min, 4min). The current Line 3 operates more frequently than that. With 2-car trains and ATO something like 2.5min would seem more reasonable for this option.

Oh wait, I was confused. The option I was more talking about would be Option 1 (the McGuinty one, using Line 3's alignment), but with subway-like vehicles (similar to Option 4). Still haven't looked at it closely, and not sure if Steer Davies Gleave differentiated between the different speeds/acceleration of LRVs and subway/metro vehicles.

^an easy way is increase frequency. The report proposed 4 minute frequencies.. the ECLRT is capable of 1.5 on grade seperated portions.

Exactly. 90sec frequency with 60m trains (upgradable to 90m) run fully grade-separated and we probably wouldn't see any capacity constraints until the year 2200. I don't think it's worth it to tunnel Eglinton East, but the numbers show it would be very popular.

 

[Voltz]

Eglinton should have been a subway from day one! From the original Transit City plan. That would have avoided all this crap. The Ford-McGuinty Option was the best plan because it made Eglinton viable as a major route, would have brought a huge amount of money via fares and would have justified the DRL from Weston to Fairview Mall like it should have been in the first place.

No, the Elginton LRT tunnel was the worst plan at the time, it would have taken $2 billion and buried it in the ground to build a tunnel to a location where there is already a Subway and a GO train line, and only save a few minutes in travel time compared to the surface alignment, which there is plenty of room on the surface for. And the vast majority of the increase in ridership was existing riders who are already on the Bloor Danforth line. It also would have cost us the Finch and Sheppard LRT's.

The DRL north of Danforth is justified on its own without diverting riders from Danforth to Eglinton and forcing them to get on sooner.