Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Adjei]

It depends. As long as the cost increases are consistent with what is expected for a subway project, I will continue to support SSE. Anyone is free to disagree with that, but do not forget that DRL, once it goes into the detailed design stage, is likely to experience the same problem, escalating costs as more technical details become known. Many posters who jeer every time they learn about the SSE cost escalations, will change their attitude and give a pass to DRL regardless of its cost escalations.

If there was a technical obstacle that makes SSE much costlier than another subway project of a similar length and in today's dollars, I would reconsider. But so far, no such technical obstacles have been discovered. There is an issue with Highland Creek but it is within normal cost variations, and might be avoided altogether by choosing a different route.

I'm sure the DRL will have more than one stop. This subway project adds one stop to our subway network and is costing 4 billion plus and rising. It's ridiculous...

 

[APTA-2048]

I'm sure the DRL will have more than one stop. This subway project adds one stop to our subway network and is costing 4 billion plus and rising. It's ridiculous...

In a more cynical view: it's taking away four stops (if you want to count McCowan). People I know who work by Ellesmere aren't happy about that.

 

[Adjei]

In a more cynical view: it's taking away four stops (if you want to count McCowan). People I know who work by Ellesmere aren't happy about that.

This subway is a political project. I mean I wouldn't have a problem without if it was adding to our transit but like you say it feels like its taking away. We are losing about 4 stops in exchange for 1. We are going backwards.

 

[coffey1]

I'm sure the DRL will have more than one stop. This subway project adds one stop to our subway network and is costing 4 billion plus and rising. It's ridiculous...

Although this was the proposal which carried forward it was more a blessing to keep things moving. This route, cost and # of stops has not been confirmed. A consultant was to be retained under this motion to improve on this. Not sure why this wasnt reported on.

Also do we know what the accurate cost are of the DRL is? Seems to be escalating at the same rate... Only 5% design was complete last council meeting as well. Surely it will have more stops but atleast the SCC has the option of running partial surface which should alleviate most of the problematic cost of deep tunneling.

If you can put an LRT on the surface you can put a subway there too. May cost slightly more but Its not rocket science and only makes sense to SCC. We have now progressed here lets wait and see.

When we looks at the cost we should really be looking at the cost of the entire network and then it wont seem as crazy to spend a bit more to integrate very key areas of the City in a more effective manner. The overall cost may be crazy which makes it more important to integrate it right.

 

[coffey1]

This subway is a political project. I mean I wouldn't have a problem without if it was adding to our transit but like you say it feels like its taking away. We are losing about 4 stops in exchange for 1. We are going backwards.

No we went backwards when we built the RT. Considering intelligent stop locations are far more important than saving stops in questionable locations. Ellesmere and Midland are LOW volume ridership stops and will be covered partially by Smarttrack. The Scar-Durham BRT can also be extended along Ellesmere if truly needed and would make more sense to this mainly industrial area. Lawrence should hopefully be added back as a Subway stop and if it runs on the RT route it will allow for extension above 401 to Markham/Milner just like the LRT (and same above ground cost)

There are far more locations in Scarborough which should have stops before the RT Ellesmere and Midland locations and if they fund the Crosstown extension many of these locations will start to be addressed. If Sheppard is a Subway the Crosstown can extend to Malvern TC otherwise an LRT loop will be decent as well. So no matter what happens on Sheppard the concept moving forward makes much more sense in the bigger picture IMO.

Of course those residents that use the line will be upset. But there are for more residents upset in higher populated areas that avoid the RT transfer and are much more in need of an LRT stop location. End of the day the RT and transfer before SCC is not attractive to people in greater Scarborough and Toronto developers and those current RT stops do not justify priority in the big scheme and the overall need to connect SCC.

If you told me we are building stops everywhere id say sure we need to save them. But that's not how transit is built or every going to be built out here. So stop locations need to be chosen in a more intelligent manner and those stops don't deserve to be a major factor. SCC does. The LRT can cover more priority areas and as mentioned there are there ways in which those RT stops can receive more appropriate form of rapid transit in the bigger picture of Scarborough. Its slight pain for a small minority to move forward in the right direction from previous mistakes.

 

[BurlOak]

So how do you reconcile the fact that the conversion of the SRT would attract more Scarberians to the system, whereas a very healthy proportion of the ridership of the subway will be driving down from Markham?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I don't recall for sure, but did the connected SRT/ECLRT not have the greatest increase in ridership?

 

[44 North]

I don't recall for sure, but did the connected SRT/ECLRT not have the greatest increase in ridership?

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that buried SRT/ECLRT report? I'd be interested to know the speeds used in their calculations, and how it could differ if in place of hefty LRVs they used subway/light metro rolling stock. For such a line (i.e fully grade-separated end-to-end) it makes little sense to use LRVs - which since built for roadway operation is the equivalent of a tank. Naturally a vehicle with higher acceleration and higher top speed would result in quicker travel time, and I guess by default a more attractive service. High-floor/high platform vehicles may even result in less station dwell time compared with the low-floor Freedom, though that probably would be negligible.

 

[coffey1]

Coffey1, it would be nice if you could cite your top 4 or 5 biased articles, so we could focus on what you are suggesting.

- Paul

Hi Paul.

I'll do it because you asked but theres a lot of volume to go thru and google isn't so friendly to search too far back on my first quick attempt. But I also challenge you to read 10-20 articles from each of the last few years and see if you can pic out narrative, see if there is any balance and then try to show me how this is purely reporting unbiased journalism

Do you really not see the Sun and Star (NP, Globe) are just extensions of corporate influence Political parties? Its really that simple as to why we have an issue here. The Star, Metroland is pro blanket LRT for Scarborough and they made no attempt to hide it or stop promoting it. From headlines, to pictures, to comments within articles, have much higher volume anti SSE "opinion" columns which. The Sun plays the anti tax political spectrum wants little to do with transit talk so they stay mum aside from the odd opportunistic swipe at the Provincial liberals. Scarborough and the greater parts of our inner suburbs have been left without a voice and your hearing it at the polls.

The average person in the City who has never frequented Scarborough or only small parts of it doesn't get why people here are upset. And that's what happens when you only get one side of the story. Media should have no Political affiliation to begin with even worse when both side abandon the concerns of such a large group of people.

I don't think people understand how important it is right now to work together in the City or we are headed for further Political polarization. Tory knows it and has even came out to tell the media stop the nonsense. Please don't respond if your just want to get personal or spit vile.

 

[sixrings]

The sun and globe are conservative. We have had five years of conservative mayors who suport subways subways subways. Yet even the sun and globe are not pro subway because they are pro penny pinChing. Anyways I was hoping to get specific articles proving the bias, not a lesson on which news papers like which parties.

 

[Rainforest]

Ok, but why not extend to the DRL to Fairview Mall, seeing as it will do the same thing? Both of these will have to be built at some point. And sheppard too, because of public pressure. That's not good.

I am all for DRL going to Fairview Mall. But that's a 16-km project, which will have a lot more engineering challenges than SSE. Obviously, Long DRL will not happen in one phase; we would be lucky to get it to Eglinton in one shot, but more likely to get Danforth in Phase 1, Eglinton in Phase 2, and Fairview in Phase 3.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm sure the DRL will have more than one stop. This subway project adds one stop to our subway network and is costing 4 billion plus and rising. It's ridiculous...

I don't disagree that a 6-km long tunnel with no stops in between is odd. However, the stops were removed to cut the costs. The extension should have had 3 or 4 stops, and then it would cost more in total but the cost per stop would be lower. A Lawrence East stop could be added for $200 to $300 million, and a basic stop at Brimley with no bus terminal is unlikely to cost more than $100 million.

 

[Rainforest]

So how do you reconcile the fact that the conversion of the SRT would attract more Scarberians to the system, whereas a very healthy proportion of the ridership of the subway will be driving down from Markham?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Apparently, SRT would be more attractive for trips within Scarborough, because of the Centennial College and Sheppard / Progress stations.

However, the subway would be better for long trips to downtown, or locations close to the BD line outside Scarborough. Those trips are hardest to facilitate because they are long.

Once those needs are addressed, there is a number of possibilities to help trips within Scarborough. That can be done by express buses, or by an LRT line that starts at STC and serves the north-east.

I don't see a reason to discount riders driving down from Markham. Although some of them may switch from GO / RER and as such will not be new transit riders, others will be switching from driving all the way, and yet another group would be people who are unable to take a downtown / midtown job if SSE is not in place.

 

[WislaHD]

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that buried SRT/ECLRT report? I'd be interested to know the speeds used in their calculations, and how it could differ if in place of hefty LRVs they used subway/light metro rolling stock. For such a line (i.e fully grade-separated end-to-end) it makes little sense to use LRVs - which since built for roadway operation is the equivalent of a tank. Naturally a vehicle with higher acceleration and higher top speed would result in quicker travel time, and I guess by default a more attractive service. High-floor/high platform vehicles may even result in less station dwell time compared with the low-floor Freedom, though that probably would be negligible.

It is all in the Eglinton Crosstown Benefits Case Analysis (which is a pretty interesting document).

Some screenshots: (the buried SRT/ECLRT is Option 4 in this report.)

 

[interchange42]

@pstogios and @coffey1 have both been banned for 1 year, yes, 1 year because even after being told no more ad hominem just a day ago, they could not stop themselves.

Some other posts which copied their ad hominem attacks have been removed too, but no other action will be taken against those members.

We might—might—invite @pstog and @coff back sooner, but no guarantee. If anyone wants to offer commentary about the bans, then start a new thread in the Forum Issues section, and add a @interchange42 to the post if you want to get my attention.

I apologize to you if this action seems a little strident, but these guys have both frequently disturbed the peace around here, and we want a forum where you can all discuss actual issues without getting derailed by others' personal dramas. I hope this helps, but like I said, if you want to offer commentary, head for the Forum Issues section and get a thread going there.

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[44 North]

It is all in the Eglinton Crosstown Benefits Case Analysis (which is a pretty interesting document).

Some screenshots: (the buried SRT/ECLRT is Option 4 in this report.)

Oh right, thanks. Surprised they used such low frequency (5min, 4min). The current Line 3 operates more frequently than that. With 2-car trains and ATO something like 2.5min would seem more reasonable for this option.