Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

Both have not happened for the past 8 to 13 years with the Liberals in power (mostly majority). I would say that "both looks increasingly unlikely by 2030 especially if Liberals get another majority.

Not saying they will build them. And certianly might be no more than another ploy for votes or a push to knock the Liberals over the financial cliff when they clearly have no sustainable plan. But aernt the new Ford-Brown conservatives pro DRL, Sheppard, & SSE?

I would say this bodes well for atleast keeping the file moving forward no matter who wins. If the Cons go in hard enough you'll likely see fringe downtown votes start to slide Conservative just based on hope and unless the Liberals find another asset to sell off.

You may not Like Rob Ford or his Politics. But one thing is certain before he completely spiraled into the ground he went hard to deliver on his promises at all costs (Right or wrong, lets not debate his platform please. Its not the point). The point is that the Liberals are great at Politics and voter persuasion but dont have a rack record anyone can trust.

I dont trust the Conservatives for transit based on previous history of doing nothing and cancellations. But its may be worth a term to see what the new Conservative admin is willing to offer to regain power? Truly unfortunate the NDP has provided little to this debate as of yet.

 

[WislaHD]

I guess I should be the one to deviate this thread from subway vs LRT.

What are you guys expectation for Scarborough Centre subway station?

A) More or less in line with the other Bloor-Danforth Stations with a modern touch?

B) Modern Stations like the Spadina extension?

C)World Class Station?

I vote for world class.

Let this be the biggest white elephant it could possibly be.

 

[sixrings]

PCs are pro talking about building transit. Once elected look for private partnerships. When none are found they look for efficiencies. When none are found they change Transit plans. Delay Delay delay until you are out of office. This is the PC plan.

 

[coffey1]

I vote for world class.

Let this be the biggest white elephant it could possibly be.

We could paint a White Elephant as a mural on the wall. The Elephant can be shown running away from Foxes & Sheep holding pitchforks in hand riding, while on a subway train with the CN Tower in the background, the Elephant can be shown running towards a finish line with a banner that says Scarborough City Center.

Then on the other side show them all holding hands.

 

[44 North]

Beginning to wonder if some have ever been to Scarborough before. Do people actually believe that places like vmc have seen more office or residential development than Scarborough Centre? The world didn't begin five years ago, there are buildings and people at SC.

 

[Cobra]

I vote for world class.

Let this be the biggest white elephant it could possibly be.

How bizarre...

Why would you wish it to be a white elephant? If anything we should be hoping that city planning can get the Scarborough Centre revitalization right so that the whole area can finally thrive.

Sorry...but this is a snob of a reply as I've seen so far

That station won't be a white elephant if ridership is around Kipling's numbers. We're not talking Bessarion here

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How bizarre...

Why would you wish it to be a white elephant? If anything we should be hoping that city planning can get the Scarborough Centre revitalization right so that the whole area can finally thrive.

Sorry...but this is a snob of a reply as I've seen so far

That station won't be a white elephant if ridership is around Kipling's numbers. We're not talking Bessarion here

The TDSB builds two schools, each with 1,000 enrolled students. School A costs $5 Million and School B costs $5 Billion. Which school would be considered a "white elephant"?

A) School A
B) School B
C) Nether, silly, they both have 1000 students

 

[Cobra]

The TDSB builds two schools, each with 1,000 enrolled students. School A costs $5 Million and School B costs $5 Billion. Which school would be considered a "white elephant"?

A) School A
B) School B
C) Nether, silly, they both have 1000 students

That's a silly analogy. Like it or not, Scarborough Centre in a underdeveloped growth centre that needs to be redesigned correctly as past city planning either misconceived it or just didn't bother giving it a second look.

The only reason why I support this subway after the city council meeting was city planning acknowledging how poorly designed Scarborough Centre was to begin with, making it less desirable than places like North York, Yonge & Eglinton and Downtown.

The subway plan is part of an initiative to completly redesigned Scarborough Centre to insure it's long term viability.

If this was only about adding 1 extra station, yeah, that's not good but during Keesmaat presentation, she highlighted that the subway was part of a broader plan to revitalize the area. She pointed out that "as is", it wasn't working (a failure without saying it).

The ridership and cost issue wasn't going to win council nor myself that day, but the city building and economical arguments are the reasons why it past at the the end of the day.

I still don't quite get why most people want this to fail while Richmond Hill doesn't get a fraction of this scrutiny and hostility, let alone Vaughan which I persist to say makes no sense. Aren't people in Scarborough Torontonian like everyone else and paying city taxes like all of us? Yet their taxes might subsidize a subway service out of city juridiction.

You should keep some of that frustration for all the past mayors who are way more responsible for this project happening today through their hidden agendas on transit, inaction and pure neglect than John Tory.

This all or nothing BS is what got us here. Subway or LRT. Both sides were so entrenched in their positions that alternatives like elevated subway "in the right corridor" never even made it to the table.

Ironically, we should have let Ford get his way with Eglinton Crosstown being merged with the SRT which was a good compromise. We wouldn't be here today debating childisly over subway vs LRT.

 

[WislaHD]

How bizarre...

Why would you wish it to be a white elephant? If anything we should be hoping that city planning can get the Scarborough Centre revitalization right so that the whole area can finally thrive.

Sorry...but this is a snob of a reply as I've seen so far

That station won't be a white elephant if ridership is around Kipling's numbers. We're not talking Bessarion here

I've been following this debate for years, that is the point where it's gotten me at. Just spend the money, get the damned gold-plated subway built. Afterwards we can maybe one day imagine building the DRL so we can ride it when we are in our 70s.

Bitter? Maybe just a little. I do hope the political disaster that is this subway plan serves as a lesson for future generations of politicians and voters, but I expect to be disappointed.

As for Kipling Station, I see this parroted often but it isn't a fair comparison. Islington Station receives a significant amount of boardings. Kipling + Islington Station far outweigh STC.

Kipling (58,100) + Islington (42,630) = 100,730

The entire SRT corridor = 38,810

 

[coffey1]

I've been following this debate for years, that is the point where it's gotten me at. Just spend the money, get the damned gold-plated subway built. Afterwards we can maybe one day imagine building the DRL so we can ride it when we are in our 70s.

Bitter? Maybe just a little. I do hope the political disaster that is this subway plan serves as a lesson for future generations of politicians and voters, but I expect to be disappointed.

As for Kipling Station, I see this parroted often but it isn't a fair comparison. Islington Station receives a significant amount of boardings. Kipling + Islington Station far outweigh STC.

Kipling (58,100) + Islington (42,630) = 100,730

The entire SRT corridor = 38,810

Ive been following too and am just as pissed at the hardened attempt to keep Scarborough center segregated. And by hardened I mean an all out media attack with unaccountable false narratives such as your last comment.

To be blunt the SRT is an utter piece of shit that is only used by those that have to. Its an embarrassment in route design thru an industrial wasteland, integration of a main City Center and technology. You cant use those RT numbers to accurately compare. Also there should be a stop added back into to Lawrence if we run partial surface but that would make too much sense. So who knows.

That would be 34,000 plus for Lawrence and SCC (RT numbers) Kennedy being 71,000 as the end of the line. Safe to say atleast 30K will revert to SCC as the new end of the line. So you are around 70K on the very low end for a line that mostly everyone avoids and has minimal attractiveness to both commuters and developers.

It will do just fine. Actually it will do great Its a disgrace the media and Political opponents have gone "all in" to convince people otherwise instead of helping to find compromised solutions even with a Mayor who has done his best to mandate compromise to avoid further harmful polarization. Even Ford tried compromise to ensure a better plan for Scarborough.

Its truly sad & shameful.

 

[crs1026]

That's a silly analogy. Like it or not, Scarborough Centre in a underdeveloped growth centre that needs to be redesigned correctly as past city planning either misconceived it or just didn't bother giving it a second look.

The only reason why I support this subway after the city council meeting was city planning acknowledging how poorly designed Scarborough Centre was to begin with, making it less desirable than places like North York, Yonge & Eglinton and Downtown.

It's not a silly analogy, it's valid pragmatism.

I don't dispute that STC is badly designed. The question is - when did this happen. My theory would be that lots of those bad decisions were made pre-amalgamation by City of Scarborough planners and Scarborough City Council, who laid out STC in the first place. More decisions were then made in the vaccuum period while amalgamation was happening and no one really knew who was in charge. The amount of decisionmaking about STC that happened after Miller (or whoever else you want to paint as this deplorable elite) may be tangential to how this all happened.

If Scarborough had a small town centric council that wasn't up to the task of laying out a sustainable city center in a larger city vision that hadn't emerged yet, don't blame the rest of us. We were too busy learning how to make a good latte to think about screwing Scarborough.

For some reason, the grievance politic seems to arise in just every issue in modern life. If you can position an issue as somebody having screwed someone, it gets all sorts of traction when you claim to be the wronged party needing justice, and you get all sorts of attention. Whereas most often, you just have a mess that got off the rails through lack of foresight or expertise, and only with hindsight do we realise that it's not working. We can solve problems faster and better if we aren't tangled up in guilt or blame or judgements.

I favour building the subway.....if only to stop this argument once and for all. I hope that some day, Scarberians will acknowledge that the City dug deep and did the right thing for them, whether it works or not. It would be great to have neat stuff out there to visit.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

Ironically, we should have let Ford get his way with Eglinton Crosstown being merged with the SRT which was a good compromise. We wouldn't be here today debating childisly over subway vs LRT.

The cancellation of the Ford compromise and the conversion to the Scarborough Subway served a vital purpose. The first part (cancellation) knocked Ford of his high perch and took transit planning away from Ford. The next step (subway) was vital so the Liberals could retain their seat in the by-election. (I guess that also required the cancelation of the offshore wind farm, which was just announced to be costing us even more).

All in all, I would say the Scarborough Subway was planned perfectly. Ford and the conservative movement was defeated, the extra costs were all put onto the city, the province got to defer their spending commitments, and it's the City politicians that are receiving the blame.

 

[Northern Light]

I don't think its disputed that STC was designated Scarborough's downtown because the Eaton Family owned that land, which became Scarborough Town Ctr.

An over simplification of course, the 401 had been pushed through by then; but yes, like Mississauga, the conception of 'downtown' as a regional mall with a smattering of office towers around it was never a functional notion, and why that was ever imagined otherwise I can't quite fathom.

But, this is all essentially moot.

One has 2 reasonable choices (the latter of which is rarely discussed).

1) Serve the area and other key trip generators en route or nearby (Scarborough General, Centennial College Progress) via rapid transit (we needn't re-debate route/technology as this juncture).

OR

2) Relocate the functions which require service to where the subway now ends or other more desirable location.

People tend not to discuss this latter option, perceiving is pie-in-the-sky, or too expensive.

However, Scarborough General has been given approval to contemplate total reconstruction and possible relocation of their campus.

That is already (theoretically) funded, 10 years out or so.

Moving every building at Centennial would only cost maybe 2 Billion at a push.

The private sector could be asked to fend for itself.

But....could also be offered free/cheap land outright or in a swap to relocate retail/office.

The physical centre of Scarborough is roughly Danforth/Eglinton.

You have 2 GO lines and the subway in the area already, and considerable public land holdings around Kennedy Stn, including the parking and adjacent rec ctr.

***

No, I'm not seriously pitching this idea, as this point, though I actually think it might make more sense financially.

Be that as it may.

A subway here is credible, in terms of ridership, based on North American comparisons for sure, and perhaps more global ones as well.

It may not be the ideal choice.

A DRL should have come first.

But we really ought to stop dithering before the damned LRT collapses in a heap.

 

[coffey1]

It's not a silly analogy, it's valid pragmatism.

I don't dispute that STC is badly designed. The question is - when did this happen. My theory would be that lots of those bad decisions were made pre-amalgamation by City of Scarborough planners and Scarborough City Council, who laid out STC in the first place. More decisions were then made in the vaccuum period while amalgamation was happening and no one really knew who was in charge. The amount of decisionmaking about STC that happened after Miller (or whoever else you want to paint as this deplorable elite) may be tangential to how this all happened.

If Scarborough had a small town centric council that wasn't up to the task of laying out a sustainable city center in a larger city vision that hadn't emerged yet, don't blame the rest of us. We were too busy learning how to make a good latte to think about screwing Scarborough.

For some reason, the grievance politic seems to arise in just every issue in modern life. If you can position an issue as somebody having screwed someone, it gets all sorts of traction when you claim to be the wronged party needing justice, and you get all sorts of attention. Whereas most often, you just have a mess that got off the rails through lack of foresight or expertise, and only with hindsight do we realise that it's not working. We can solve problems faster and better if we aren't tangled up in guilt or blame or judgements.

I favour building the subway.....if only to stop this argument once and for all. I hope that some day, Scarberians will acknowledge that the City dug deep and did the right thing for them, whether it works or not. It would be great to have neat stuff out there to visit.

- Paul

The RT was the only major mistake in Scarborough's history. Which wasn't as much Scarborough's fault as the Province. Sure there are other legacy challenges just like every other City and when it was time to move forward to revitalize and re-adjust to give the best opportunity to flourish there has been strong opposition at every turn. Scarborough's voice have been drown out & Toronto (outside of Scarborough) has done little but stand in the way to prevent anything of quality or integration from happening here. But yet they trumpet otherwise.

The downtown Political "want to be" dictatorship has been the main issue preventing Scarborough from moving forward for far too long. And for the most part we'll thank the likes of John Tory and Rob Ford for listening to the large amounts of people being collectively ignored and applaud their action standing up against this abuse of power. We will not be thanking the "Holier than thou" Politicians, special interest group and their media friends still trying to cause problems.

Whether you are spending 30 billion or 33 billion on transit. It better great with integration of key nodes as a high priority. The "Band-Aid" failed.

 

[sixrings]

Maybe it's not just downtown that hates scarborough. Maybe north York, east York, etobicoke do as well.