Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

That's a lot of maybes and what-ifs.

Please tell me what maybes and what-ifs there were? He'd still need to use 2 Danforth Line to get downtown, GO RER is happening and will be a fraction of the cost, it will get him downtown faster than Line 2, his bus ride to Line 2 will be faster, and the transfer from 3 Scarborough Line to Line 2 would have been only a few steps, taking only a few minutes to complete at most. I'm not seeing any room for maybes or what-ifs in what I said.

You could have also told him that if he transfers from the Bloor-Danforth extension to the Eglinton Crosstown at Kennedy, he can get to Yonge and Eglinton without ever having go to Yonge and Bloor.

I don't expect very many people to do that. The Eglinton Line is slower than Danforth Line and you'd be adding an additional transfer.

If one day there is also a suburban regional express miles west of this line that goes to Union Station, well that's just gravy.

You have to be kidding me...

So you mean to tell me that if theres a rapid transit line 2000 meters west of McCowan that would bring you downtown faster, you never use it? Give me a break.

 

[nfitz]

Please tell me what maybes and what-ifs there were? He'd still need to use 2 Danforth Line to get downtown, GO RER is happening and will be a fraction of the cost, it will get him downtown faster than Line 2 ...

How does RER get you downtown faster than Line 2? Downtown is more than Union station. Station with most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas. This requires long walk from Union rail to subway station, and yet another subway ride. Factor in long gaps between RER trains, and you are likely quicker to simply stay on the subway at Kennedy and change at Bloor - or at Pape when they build the DRL.

 

[quicksilver]

Please tell me what maybes and what-ifs there were? He'd still need to use 2 Danforth Line to get downtown, GO RER is happening and will be a fraction of the cost, it will get him downtown faster than Line 2, his bus ride to Line 2 will be faster, and the transfer from 3 Scarborough Line to Line 2 would have been only a few steps, taking only a few minutes to complete at most. I'm not seeing any room for maybes or what-ifs in what I said.

I don't expect very many people to do that. The Eglinton Line is slower than Danforth Line and you'd be adding an additional transfer.

You have to be kidding me...

So you mean to tell me that if theres a rapid transit line 2000 meters west of McCowan that would bring you downtown faster, you never use it? Give me a break.

I kid you not and what would you like a break from? Haha! No offence intended.

Maybe one day there will be an electric GO service in the east end of Toronto that departs every fifteen minutes. Maybe the east end will become phase 2 (of Smart Track?) since we're already building an extension of the Bloor/Danforth subway line to McCowan and Sheppard, as blessed and paid for three levels of government (I recognize there is paper work to be signed).

Maybe your friend has an appointment somewhere on Yonge between Bloor and Lawrence and is smart enough to include the hassle he will face at Yonge/Bloor (Yonge/Bloor was portrayed as a place to avoid). We really have to choose where downtown the friend is going. Maybe its the financial district or south. Then it maybe it make sense to take the GO line if it exists and reasonably cheap when compared to TTC. But what if your friend is going to U of T, St. George? Maybe he works there now. Is he going to take a bus (or LRT) all the way from around UTS to Kennedy/Sheppard and then transfer to GO to arrive at Union, only to go north again? Since he works at U of T, I'm betting he's smarter than that.

On the whole it's hard to say how fast Eglinton will be compared to Bloor because your friend is going to a hypothetical location and Eglinton doesn't exist yet. Instead we might say Eglinton could be slower rather than "is" slower.

Eventually even the downtown hipsters will see the transit investments in east Toronto paying off because hipsters too grow up and start families. Transit and the associated increased creature comforts may make certain neighbourhoods in the old borough safe for reformed hipsters when they can't afford to buy a house downtown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How does RER get you downtown faster than Line 2? Downtown is more than Union station. Station with most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas. This requires long walk from Union rail to subway station, and yet another subway ride. Factor in long gaps between RER trains, and you are likely quicker to simply stay on the subway at Kennedy and change at Bloor - or at Pape when they build the DRL.

You are aware that RER will have subway-like frequencies, right?

 

[nfitz]

You are aware that RER will have subway-like frequencies, right?

You said above it would be more than 15 minutes. The subway never is scheduled at more than 6 minutes, and often much less at 2 minutes.

Even every 15-minutes off-peak is not subway-like frequencies.

But even if it was subway-like frequencies, the current direct non-stop train from Union to Kennedy is 19 minutes. How much longer will this be by the FIVE extra proposed stops at Scarborough GO, Main Street, Gerrard, Queen and Unilever. And there's some talk already of a 6th stop at Cherry! There's no way this run won't be 22 minutes by the time it's finished.

From Kennedy the subway only takes 22 minutes right now to get you to Bloor-Yonge and it goes every 2 minutes in rush-hour. So if your downtown is the Toronto Star building, then this SmartTrack line might help. But if your downtown is University of Toronto, you'd never take it. If your downtown is Dundas/Yonge, then you'd be faster taking the subway. If your at King/Yonge, you've either got a 6-minute subway ride from Bloor, or an 8-minute walk from the GO platform (or longer, with the crowds I see at rush hour!). So pretty much a wash. But the subway comes every 2 minutes, and the GO Train much less often.

Really SmartTrack only benefits those coming from Kennedy to Union who are going to be about a 5 minute walk from Union Station. Many will be a wash, and most will stay on the subway.

 

[LNahid2000]

Even every 15-minutes off-peak is not subway-like frequencies.

It is in other parts of the world, and even in New York City at night. Our subways are a lot more frequent off peak than most other places.

 

[nfitz]

It is in other parts of the world, and even in New York City at night. Our subways are a lot more frequent off peak than most other places.

Presumably when one in Toronto says "subway-like frequencies" one is talking of Toronto subways. There are subway lines that run at 30-minute frequencies elsewhere ... does this mean the Lakeshore GO line now runs at subway-like frequencies?

Heck, some subway lines only run at peak periods, and are closed evenings and weekends. Does this mean the DRL is already running at subway-like frequencies?

 

[BurlOak]

A few weeks ago I was discussing the Line 2 extension with a friend of mine who lives near UTSC who was really enthused about the extension. I pointed out that he'd still need to use B-Y and all the stations on 2 Danforth Line, there's a new rapid transit line (ahem... surface subway john tory?) 2 kilometers west that will get him downtown far faster than the Line 2 extension, the new rapid transit line will be fractions of the cost of the Line 2 extension, his bus ride to the Line 2 will be notably longer than his bus ride to SRT (if the replacement plan was implemented), and that the transfer from Line 3 to Line 2 would have been only a few steps, taking no more than a few minutes to complete. His enthusiasm for the project immediately evaporated.

The problem is that Transit Planners have given us only two choices, a separate LRT on Eglinton and on the SRT route, with a forced transfer at Kennedy, OR, a subway extension.

The former has been rejected by City Council, by the Province, by the current and former Mayor, and the electorate that supported the current and former Mayor. So there is no way that anyone would actually advocate for the LRT plan. Thus, by default, the only thing left to do is extend the subway.

I am not sure if transit planners in Toronto are complete idiots, or more likely senior managers are reflecting some form of political will from above on their staff, preventing staff from coming up with, and sharing, their better ideas.

 

[Rainforest]

his bus ride to the Line 2 will be notably longer than his bus ride to SRT (if the replacement plan was implemented)

I am not sure that this is correct though. The Centennial College station of the extended SRT would, indeed, be closest to UTCS.

But, the Ellesmere buses will likely follow Ellesmere and serve STC anyway, instead of turning north to Centennial. If so, then the length of bus ride to Line 2 and to extended SRT is exactly same.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I am not sure that this is correct though. The Centennial College station of the extended SRT would, indeed, be closest to UTCS.

But, the Ellesmere buses will likely follow Ellesmere and serve STC anyway, instead of turning north to Centennial. If so, then the length of bus ride to Line 2 and to extended SRT is exactly same.

It will be longer. His home is nearly walking distance from Centennial Station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You said above it would be more than 15 minutes. The subway never is scheduled at more than 6 minutes, and often much less at 2 minutes.

The subways are often scheduled at 7 minutes.

Even every 15-minutes off-peak is not subway-like frequencies.

Really? Have you ridden a metro outside of Toronto? In my experience, Toronto's metros are remarkably frequent. In cities with 'world class' subway systems, I've seen trains come 15 to 30 minutes off peak. Obviously late at night, but still ridiculously low frequencies.

 

[nfitz]

The subways are often scheduled at 7 minutes.

The Toronto subway is never scheduled at 7 minutes. Looking at the current service sumnmary, Both the YUS line and the BD line are at worst less than 5 minutes. Sheppard is 5.5 minutes all the time. You might see 7-minute or longer gaps when there are delays. But it's never scheduled at more than 5.5 minutes.

Really? Have you ridden a metro outside of Toronto? In my experience, Toronto's metros are remarkably frequent. In cities with 'world class' subway systems, I've seen trains come 15 to 30 minutes off peak. Obviously late at night, but still ridiculously low frequencies.

In some "world-class" cities, they simply close lines entirely off-peak. I'm simply saying that when you talk "subway-like" frequencies in a Toronto context, you mean no worse than 6 or so minutes.

No one should be waiting 15 minutes for a subway, ever. Toronto is better than that. Now, if you had 24-hour service, then perhaps a 15-minute frequency would be acceptable. But I don't think it is mid-day or evening.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Toronto subway is never scheduled at 7 minutes. Looking at the current service sumnmary, Both the YUS line and the BD line are at worst less than 5 minutes. Sheppard is 5.5 minutes all the time. You might see 7-minute or longer gaps when there are delays. But it's never scheduled at more than 5.5 minutes

The service may be scheduled at 5.5 minutes, but I can tell you that I frequently experience 7 minute wait times, especially on Line 2, late at night on weekends.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How does RER get you downtown faster than Line 2? Downtown is more than Union station. Station with most arrivals in AM peak is Dundas. This requires long walk from Union rail to subway station, and yet another subway ride. Factor in long gaps between RER trains, and you are likely quicker to simply stay on the subway at Kennedy and change at Bloor - or at Pape when they build the DRL.

Here's a hypothetical trip from UTSC to Dundas Station, the most used Station on Line 1 south of Line 2. I'm assuming 5 minute transfer times to RER and 2.5 minutes to LRT/subway.

UTSC to Dundas Station via Lakeshore East RER:
198 Express from UTSC to Guildwood GO Station: 10 minutes
Guildwood GO Station to Union GO Station: 25 minutes
Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 minutes
Total: 45.5 min

UTSC to Dundas Station via Line 2
38 Highland Creek to Scarborough Centre Station: 17 minutes
Scarborough Centre Station to Bloor-Yonge Station: 30 minutes
Bloor-Yonge Station to Dundas Station: 4 min
Total: 56 min

UTSC to Dundas Station via Line 3 and Stouffville RER
TTC Bus to Centennial Station: 13 minutes
Centennial Station to Ellesmere Station: 7 min (36 km/h)
Ellesmere Station to Union Station: 23 min
Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 min
Total: 56 min

I got these travel time details off of Google Maps. The travel time will vary by time of day.

The Lakeshore East RER line will get you downtown 11 minutes faster than the Line 2 extension. Line 2 is equally as slow as using Line 3 and Stouffville RER. So at least for people living at the eastern end of Scarborough, we're spending $2.5 Billion on a subway extension that will get people downtown no faster than any of the cheaper alternatives.

 

[BurlOak]

I am not sure the frequency of GO RER, but I assume 10' for a transfer to GO, 5' from bus to TTC rail, and 3' from TTC rail to rail - just to see the sensitivity.

A. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Lakeshore East RER: (all existing routes)
1 - 198 Express from UTSC to Guildwood GO Station: 10 minutes (+10' transfer)
2 - Guildwood GO Station to Union GO Station: 25 minutes (+5' transfer)
3 - Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 minutes
Total: 53 min

B. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Line 2 (assuming proposed B-D extension to Sheppard)
1 - 38 Highland Creek to Scarborough Centre Station: 17 minutes (+5' transfer)
2 - Scarborough Centre Station to Bloor-Yonge Station: 30 minutes (+3' transfer)
3 - Bloor-Yonge Station to Dundas Station: 4 min
Total: 59 min

C. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Line 3 and Stouffville RER/SmartTrack (assuming SRT exists and SmartTrack)
1 - 36 TTC Bus to Centennial Station: 13 minutes (+5' transfer)
2 - Centennial Station to Ellesmere Station: 7 min (36 km/h) (+10' transfer)
3 - Ellesmere Station to Union Station: 23 min (+5' transfer)
4 - Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 min
Total: 66 min

C'. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Stouffville RER/SmartTrack (assuming no SRT or B-D extension and SmartTrack)
1 - 36 TTC Bus to Ellesmere Station: 26 minutes (+10' transfer)
2 - Ellesmere Station to Union Station: 23 min (+5' transfer)
3 - Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 min
Total: 67 min

C". UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Line 2 and Stouffville RER/SmartTrack (assuming proposed B-D extension to Sheppard and SmartTrack)
1 - 38 Highland Creek to Scarborough Centre Station: 17 minutes (+5' transfer)
2 - Scarborough Centre Station to Kennedy: 10 minutes (+10' transfer)
3 - Kennedy to Union Station: 19 minutes (+5' transfer)
4 - Union Station to Dundas Station: 3 min
Total: 69 min

D. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Line 3 continuous to Line 1 (assuming Eglinton elevated instead of B-D extension)
1 - TTC Bus to Centennial Station: 13 minutes (+5' transfer)
2 - Centennial Station to Yonge-Eg Station: 34 min (35 km/h) (+3' transfer)
3 - Bloor-Yonge Station to Dundas Station: 4 min
Total: 59 min


A few things to learn.

1. Connecting Eglinton LRT to SRT is just as effective as extending Line 2, but at $1B less cost.
2. GO RER (on all lines) is just as important or more so than SmartTrack only on the Markham line. For this travel pattern, GO Lakeshore is the best option - but lack of fair integration would mean it doesn't get used.
3. It would be interesting to see what the result is for a travel pattern from Malvern (another large node in Scarborough) to Dundas.